Re: Armor proposal 1

[Wright Frazier <khelek>]

> 
> This then allows skippy the wonderrate2 to wander into any reasonably
> small village (i.e. w no or irregular guards), set the place on fire, take
> whatever, and still hold off the entire populous with a #2 pencil.

And the GM that just let that happen is a fraggin idiot, and you can
quote me on that.  Screw hitting him with spears, do what real people
do to master warriors/gunmen... TACKLE THEM.  You jump on them and
dog pile them, then beat them to a pulp.

Stop thinking so linearly, John.

> 
> Of course, If I waited until about rate 10, I could throw a few more DP
> behind me and add a few multi attacks.
> 
> THAT is unbalanced.

No, that is just bad GM'ing.

> Did they use these abilities to produce anything new?  Did they do it more
> than a handful of times, or was it custom made (yeah, I know ALL armor
> ought to be custom).  i.e. is this now the norm that you propose, or a
> small amount of special orders?

They did some of both.  I know Chak and Karin taught metal working to
a group of cattaurs in the islands around Geleia.  The rest of the
specifics escape me, but I know on several occasions they made their
own equipment, and made stuff for the general populace.


> 
> I based it on the premises made by others before I began addressing this
> thread.

And its still invalid.  

> You misunderstood what I meant ... The AQ universe revolves (figureatively
> ... also not getting into planetary motion theory) around the adventurer,
> or more specificly, the player playing an adventurer.  They OUGHT to shape
> the world because it's their world (or we'd be playing something else).
> 
> If I adhered to the "there are other people to hire" POV, then there'd be
> a whole lot of bored players come Saturday while my actors hired someone
> competent who acted like a team.
> 
> Mind you the SETTING never lets the characters know they're hot shit  :)

I disagree with the above stuff.  Adventurers are the chaos factor and
the movers and shakers of the world.  They are not the pilars of it
however.  That may be able to happen in a microcosm such as Rougtero, and
infact it does.  Thats all Rougtero is about however...adventurers.  Thats
why there are such a disproportionately high number of them there.  You can't
have that many exceptional individuals in the world at large, otherwise
you have a planet full of killers and thieves and noone gets anything done.
Someone has to found and rule these kingdoms and businesses that hire
people.  Someone has to make the beer that you drink.  Those ords are
the foundation of the world, and what it really revolves around. 
Adventurers come and go, ordinary people doing ordinary things keep the
ball rolling.  This bears up in every period of real history and in
every culture.  You have blazing stars that accomplish amazing things, but
in the end, the ordinary guy just keeps plugging along and the world
keeps turning.  

Also, Rougtero(and this isn't necessarily a bad thing) is the prime example
of a capitalist enclave.  Its a merchant city..and the wares produced
there are mercenaries.  You need a merc, go to Rougtero and find one.  The
rest of the world however doesn't suffer from this.


> 2)	That shopkeeper/farmer/beggar/whatever is a rate x warrior?  Damn!
> now I know who can take those damned minibolting kids out!

Yes...what did you think everyone was a marine, auger, priest, or nomad?
Since the general skills got yanked, everyone paid the same cost for
the vast majority of professional skills.  So you could in effect have
a peasent.  Someone who didn't belong to a spoke on the troika.  Now
that is gone, so ya gotta belong to something, and 'warrior' is the most
down to earth one.  Nothing to terribly fancy or wacked out(immobilize,
and other hard core atheletic skills or spells), and they don't have
to go to school to be the living computers that Augers do, or spend
years of training and contact another plane that Nomads do.

> 
> 3)	If everyone's a warrior, how does one GET an irregular army?

Couple of ways.
	1) just because one is a warrior doesn't make it a given they have
		weapon skill.
	2) being skilled in the use of a weapon does not make one a good
		soldier.  

Irregular armies are best classified as having no internal discipline and
group fighting training.  I tried to get military skills(land tactics, sea
tactics, Warfare Strategy, and Logistics) introduced, however that was
shot down as 'roleplaying stuff'.  Those things are every bit as much
of an artform as swinging your sword if they are done well, but hey. =)
But as I said, those skills were vetoed.  So in truth there is no mechanics
way of saying you are a good soldier and know how to work with your buddies
in a fight(land tactics), there is no way to know how to maneuver your
ship for optimum firing position or conduct an amphibious assault(sea
tactics), there is no mechanic for someone knowing how to conduct a
war and integrate the different types of units you have(Warfare strategy),
and there is no mechanic for keeping your people fed and supplies to
the right place at the right time(Logistics).

So how do you have an irregular army?  You get a bunch of peasents who
have never served together or drilled together for a significant amount of
time, give them weapons(regardless of their individual skills) and point
them at the enemy and shove them forward.

> (John unsuccessfully holds back access-to-Geleia comment here)

5months of sea travel is nothin when you have thousands of little islands
and settlements along the way to trade with.  Folks always need those
professionally made goods, and the bumpkins out in the small islands
will pay top dollar for them.  Then you pick up what they make and
take it on to the next place, bleh bleh bleh.

I imagine between the big population locals of the world: Lojem, Centralia,
Geleia, Southern Pirates, and other places there are well established
freeports and trade routes.  People make money all along it.  For a real
world example from way back when, the Silk Road.  Ran from china to europe,
and over land at that.

> 
> > is a big exchange of ideas goin on.  That also means that people who
> 
> Capitalism does NOT facilitate a FREE exchange of ideas, it can emphasize
> secrecy, especially when the good/info/etc would demand a high price, or
> give way to a more leveraged position.

Quite true, however when you see some bozo walking down the street or
carving through a buncha guys you can fairly easily pick that idea up.
Not the information age guy, the high tech stuff here is pretty readily
visible.  Besides, even if you can't copy it, you can always bludgeon the
guy and take his stuff.

> 
> How many Taurusites blabbed about refining steel?

Pure game mechanic there.  Steel is rare because of its game effect, +1
to damage.  No +1 to damage, then it wouldn't be as rare.  Its a nice
quasi magical item that takes no xp to make.  Thats why its rare, cause
as the archives will show, the type of steel Jaernians use most likely
is easy to make.  There is no way to keep knowledge of that type of
thing down, it'll get out some how.  Just to screw with people a Hirudo
will brain suck a Tarusian for how to make the stuff and then spread
the formula near and far.  There, steel is out..rah rah.  Or an
auger does the samething with torture.  Again..pure game mechanic, these
simple things have never happened for the simple reason that steel gives
that spiff +1 to damage bonus and makes a good quasi-magical item.
 

> Yes and no
> 
> The object grouping rules allow you to -provided all elements are in
> contact in some way- make a group of objects considered one object for
> mechanic purposes
> 
> Adamant is 1 object with a weight restriction
> 
> check the wording on this though, I've got an older book.  It's in the
> chapter dealing with what constitutes the different targets of spells.

Cool, since you'll allow this, I have a game action with my earth mage.
Anyone got a water mage I can hire the services of?  I'll pay you
5 adamantite shields/plates. ;)

I still say the pile of shields is, regardless of size are individual objects
for that adamant spell.  Common sense there.  

> 
> OK, I'm not going to argue on the value of the underlying mechanic, I'm
> saying that armor, WITH THE CURRENT RULE SET, is not UNBALANCED.  A great
> deal of work appears to have gone into having a person fully armored only
> be able to be hit by a 20 and moving down incrementally from there.

As i said above..do what real people do against skilled fighters, dog
pile them.

> 
> What I'm saying is that, before arbitrarily assigning a slightly higher
> value to armor as a "solution," one ought to see what that does to the
> premise of what the armor appears to be based on, as well as evaluating
> them at low, mid, and high rates.

I'd much rather have better movement rates and less penalties for armor.
I just offered up 3 proposals to cover all my bases. =)

> 
> Further, that the argument of "wars drive innovation past where it is now,
> while accurate on its face", is inaccurate with the premises you or others
> have provided that:

No..its completely accurate...I quote Mr. Will Rogers.  "You can't say
humanity don't improve itself..cause in every war we find new ways to kill
each other."  

> 
> Armies are made of people formerly in the work force.
> Such people are sub rate 5
> Specially trained personnel are too expensive to train to consider the
> mainstream of combat forces.

Not always.  Only in recent times.  Frederick the Great is the one
that really took this ball rolling and put the good people to work, though
others did it off and on(machiavelli had initial success but lost hard).
Mercs were always a big part of the army.


> 
> Therefore, as most innovation has been done presumably to work under these
> situations, evaluating armor at LOW rates will cover the largest amount of
> use of that armor.

Nah.  Mercs, kings wanting their armies to survive, merchants wanting
their guards to live past the first crossbow bolt, etc...  New ways
to help kill the other guy are ALWAYS popular, no mater who you are.

> 
> Increasing DV of armor will only lead to EVERYONE buying up their combat
> mods.

No, because by and by, war doesn't touch the average joe, or if it does,
he still doesn't bother to really learn to fight.  The exception to
this was england and switzerland, and later(before the big national
armies arose) Machiavelli's itallians.  The english had home grown
archers, swiss exported pikeman like it was going out of style, and
machiavelli made the 1st truly citizen only army.  Otherwise mercenaries
were quite often the principle combat force in any army.

> 
> If indeed everyone who can wear armor will wear the best, increasing
> mobility of armor will lead to more people wearing it (presumably your
> point) but in so doing, if EVERYONE is wearing the best they can get,
> EVERYONE'S dvs will be a little higher.  Leading back to EVERYONE buying
> up their combat mod a little.

Everyone who can afford it will wear the best.  Nah, not at all.  Most
peasents if they know how to do anything is wrestle(grapple) or 
shoot a bow for hunting.  Getting inclose is dangerous and stupid if
you don't know what you are doing.  Hince why guns are so popular.

> 
> In the end, you will have either increased the CM of every adversary you
> face enough to offset the increased benefit of armor, netting 0 change.
> 
> Or,
> 
> You've reduced the most telling disadvantage of armor, making armor
> wearing opponents more common.  As such, CMs increase accordingly, and
> ranged attacks become less frequent (i.e. you've just lamed the bow out
> again).

Wow..where do you come up with this?  I'll gladly take my chances with
a bow over my chances in hand to hand if I have the choice.  Then
you get the benefits of taking cover and not getting hacked to pieces.
And as a mental benefit...you just don't get as bloody.

> 
> Regardless, new characters get to spend a bit more on CM before they even
> begin to think about fleshing out their character, because they need to
> work harder to be able to hit.

Thats your choice now isn't it. =)  Doesn't mean everyone else follows
it.

Wright