Re: Armor proposal 1

[Wright Frazier <khelek>]

> 
> On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Wright Frazier wrote:
> 
> > Armor is unbalanced because it assigns horrendous penalties for little
> > benefit.  +6CDV in exchange for inferior Str, Agi, and Pwr?  And this
> > on top of moving at a 1/3 of your movement?  Thats silly.
> >
> 
> And has the potential of making a rate 2 character hittable (All right,
> now I'm gonna MAKE UP words!) save by an unmodified crit.

Still doesn't change the silliness of it all.  The way AQ armor is fashioned
while it might protect quite little, should allow for MUCH greater movement.

> "Solving" the problem by increasing the DVs of plate by two only makes
> combat near impossible at low levels as every participant now needs the
> "expensive to train" combat mod of at least 2 to hit anybody.

3 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 8 = 16(20 with shield)
	A low rater will have a 2-3 CM, and 2-3 skill.  We'll say 2 for this.
	So that give'em a +2 sometimes +4 to hit.  Thats still hitable
	at low rate against a person in platemail.  But for that 8pts
	of DV it should be full covering.  Not just breast and back plate
	plus pauldrons.

	If you want the 6cdv variety of plate, then it is just back
	and breast plate and should allow greater mobility.

> 
> It also just makes me add a rate to the actors you encounter to make sure
> they have that CM of 2.

So?  Anyone in a pre-industrial world should know how to protect themselves
less they become more of a victim.


> 
> It also makes players wait another rating before fleshing their characters
> out beyond dp mods and weapon skill so that THEY may overcome the new
> armor.

No, they'll still go straight power gaming till 20 or so usually so they
can have some combat surviveablity.  If you want people to change that
behavior, run more RP'ing only adventures with no fights so there is
a point to fleshing out your character.

> 
> Which leads to "Armor doesn't protect enough" (again)
> 
> So we raise the DVs (again)
> 
> So everyone buys up mod (again) which gets progressively more expensive
> 
> (see where I'm going here?)

In a pointless circle of your own twisted logic. ;)


> 
> 
> Counter this with AP3 which necessitates re-evaluation of armor via
> protection
> 
> it opens up the possibility of more that 3 or 4 types or armor with
> different emphasis on what the stuff protects you against.
> 
> It makes the warrior more viable as a background as a good one will have
> several weapon skills to deal with the different armors
> 
> (the right tool for the right job) :)
> 
> It may require the party as a whole to do some recon rather than stand in
> the road and open up on the baddies (as they now have strengths and
> weaknesses that are fairly easy to evaluate), again, the right tool for
> the right job mentality.
> 
> OTOH, they may just let the fire mage frag 'em 4-5 times, but hey

I agree fully with all points, which is why I consider proposal 3 to
be VASTLY superior to the others as it eliminates the cookie cutter
warrior to some degree and lets you choose your tools(more fleshing)
for the right job.  Mmmm...guy in chain mail, let me haul out the
battle hammer.  Guy in plate, I haul out the military pick.

Both of our sides get pretty much nullified by proposal 3 as we can
then both get what we want.


> 
> > Just as a test, I paced off 50' in stewart center(each tile = ~2.5'), 
> > and then had him(wearing his chain mail) run it while I timed.
> > Going from a dead stop, not in a sprinting stance, just standing
> > up right, and not pushing himself into a sprint, he covered it
> > in barely over 3 seconds(I believe it was 3.3sec to be more precise).
> 
> I don't doubt it.
> 
> Now let's get someone 4 feet tall to do it ... bet they do it a bit
> slower.

Yeah, too bad AQ doesn't take that into account.  I always liked the
idea of a 'speed' stat for running speed to show that some folks are
just plain faster than others.  Have a bonus to it based on your
height stat. 



> 
> Now let's get someone 7 feet tall to do it ... bet they do it somewhat
> faster.
> 
> Oh, but we don't have different movement rates for different races or
> heights to reflect the realism of different stride lengths.
> 
> Nor do we have an encumberence rule.
> 
> To make up for this, you get the trade-off of increased protection for
> decreased movement rate built into the mechanics.
> 
> However, there is also the ability to overcome these penalties with
> the (fairly inexpensive) sprinting skill.
> 
> Certainly, the penalties to AGI, STR, and PWR aren't offset, but how else
> can one increase one's character's DV merely with bankroll, not with ANY
> expenditure of ep

Buying magical items.

All valid points, but they are still bad reflectors to balance the
game with.  But any port in a storm I guess when you are going for
raw simplicity.


> 
> > > 
> > > Further, if the argument is "It should have been innovated by now ..."
> > > along with "Yeah, just look at this character that can make THIS much
> > > better armor ..." I wonder where the interest is.  If all these phantom
> > > people are making innovations, why do so few player warrior/auger/marines
> > > exhibit ANY interest in MAKING better armor.
> > 
> > Dom, Jander, Matt Fahler's old warrior that lasted a short time, and several
> > other PCs have shown high interests in making armor and weaponry.  If
> > you have a few adventurers who do it, then out of the millions of other
> > folks in the world you'll have many that do it.
> >
> If one has a very small subset of the population that is the MOST
> innovative in society interested in activity X then it does NOT stand to
> reason that a larger distribution exists within society.

That was an off the cuff list.  There have been many more.  Khelek,
Chak, Karin, Kurin, Malcolm, Dutch, Chambrai, Burnhard Brimstone,
Legion Wolf, also come to mind.  There have been plenty of characters
with smithing abilities.  Your point is invalid.


>  
> > And why do so few others show any interst in making it?  Simple, because
> > AQ is about combat, and making your character better able to survive it,
> > and few want to take the game months it takes to tinker with and build
> > armor.  That is the stuff of true professional armorers, not dilletants
> > like adventurers.
> >
> 
> Well, I'm not gonna open up the can of what AQ is all about (you're
> welcome, Greg) ... suffice it to say you take a more combat oriented
> position than I.  (though I've been accused of taking a weird stance on
> damn near all my characters by a good number of other players)

I base mine on what armor should do, one way or another.  You just
base yourse on a rate 2 newbie trying to hit some guy for the most
part.

>  
> > > If fighting forces are those driving innovation
> > > If adventureres are said fighting forces (taken to an Nth extreme)
> > > If very few characters have actually developed improvements to armor
> > 
> > You place WAY too much significance on what 'adventurers' do.  There
> > are far more mercs and soldiers out there than adventurers.  
> > 
> 
> Jaern rotates around adventurers ... it is the function of the setting.
> (Reminded of the "fairy cake" incident with Zaphod Beeblebrox  :)   )

In Rougtero may be, but thats a microcosm.  Look at another microcosm,
Geleia, and adventurers are just the chaos factor, and not the prime
motivators or power holders.

> 
> I'm not arguing that point
> 
> Your arguement is that armor is driven by its effectiveness, esp. in wars.
> Wars are fought by armies.  Armies are taken from a cross section of
> population at large and taken from the work force.  As the population at
> large is under rate 5, IRON armor is tremendously effective in combat
> between massed < rate 5ers.

Irregular armies are.  Professional armies are run by professional
soldiers(aka regular armies).  Jaern has a mercenary class of folks.
Also remember, the average person is bkg warrior.


> 
> My point is, as the hyperefficient plate of the 1500s to 1600s has been
> the example cited time and time again.  However, that which allowed said
> advancements to come about was indeed the Renaissance (spelled a variety
> of ways throughout, I've noticed ... sorry).  The Ren. was spurred, at
> least in part, by the system of Feudalism, and the desire of those in
> power to extend their influence, (by bankrolling not only art, but
> wars, intrigue, etc.) and therefore their holdings of land.
> 
> Now, as no such social construct exists with any sort of influence within
> the game (though the Geleia setting has changed this somewhat) to direct
> such change.  It cannot be asserted that such change has occurred.

Jaern is mainly capitalistic, and we have seen what 200 years of capitalist
domination has done on earth.  Everything on Jaern is sea travel, and
its done effectively, efficiently, and regularly.  That means there
is a big exchange of ideas goin on.  That also means that people who
are less well off materially will beable to encounter those more well
off and take their stuff.  Taking their stuff = the #1 reason to
make war.  And war means dying, and noone wants to die, and so
folks get the best protection they can.

> 
> And these were possible without any magic or alien (onivero) tech ... I
> see.
> 
> If you wanna whip out the magic card:
> 
> Bankroller spends half of his $ on an earth mage and a water mage.
> Strongest person he can find puts a bunch of shields in a big sack.
> Water mage endwarfs him
> The top of the bag is opened, and the earth mage rips off an Adamant.
> 
> Repeat as necessary
> 
> Hand out adamant shields to footsoldiers

They still only get 1 shield at a time.  Adamant is a 1 object spell.

> 
> OR,
> 
> one gets in his iron plate and whips off an Iron defence,

So?

> 
> OR,
> 
> one gets in his iron plate and whips off a (insert spell name that plays
> with DV here)
> 
> So yes, Wright, if one uses magic it is in all ways, save experience cost
> superior to using plate armor within the current rules.
> 
> which brings me back to the previous point,
> 
> How else does one increase DVs without expending eps in some way?
> 
> As such, how is armor unbalanced within the mechanics of the game?

Because the mechanic is badly written.  That is the whole point of
this, its a bad mechanic.  The penalties of the armor are FAR in
excess of what the design of the armor should provide.  Further they
are far in excess of the benefit they provide.  That is how it
unbalanced.

Wright