Re: Armor proposal 1

[John Hogg <johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu>]

On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Wright Frazier wrote:

> Armor is unbalanced because it assigns horrendous penalties for little
> benefit.  +6CDV in exchange for inferior Str, Agi, and Pwr?  And this
> on top of moving at a 1/3 of your movement?  Thats silly.
>

And has the potential of making a rate 2 character hittable (All right,
now I'm gonna MAKE UP words!) save by an unmodified crit.

If armor is indeed evaluated on the impact it has upon the under rate 5
army, then it is TREMENDOUSLY effective.

"Solving" the problem by increasing the DVs of plate by two only makes
combat near impossible at low levels as every participant now needs the
"expensive to train" combat mod of at least 2 to hit anybody.

It also just makes me add a rate to the actors you encounter to make sure
they have that CM of 2.

It also makes players wait another rating before fleshing their characters
out beyond dp mods and weapon skill so that THEY may overcome the new
armor.

Which leads to "Armor doesn't protect enough" (again)

So we raise the DVs (again)

So everyone buys up mod (again) which gets progressively more expensive

(see where I'm going here?)


Counter this with AP3 which necessitates re-evaluation of armor via
protection

it opens up the possibility of more that 3 or 4 types or armor with
different emphasis on what the stuff protects you against.

It makes the warrior more viable as a background as a good one will have
several weapon skills to deal with the different armors

(the right tool for the right job) :)

It may require the party as a whole to do some recon rather than stand in
the road and open up on the baddies (as they now have strengths and
weaknesses that are fairly easy to evaluate), again, the right tool for
the right job mentality.

OTOH, they may just let the fire mage frag 'em 4-5 times, but hey

> Just as a test, I paced off 50' in stewart center(each tile = ~2.5'), 
> and then had him(wearing his chain mail) run it while I timed.
> Going from a dead stop, not in a sprinting stance, just standing
> up right, and not pushing himself into a sprint, he covered it
> in barely over 3 seconds(I believe it was 3.3sec to be more precise).

I don't doubt it.

Now let's get someone 4 feet tall to do it ... bet they do it a bit
slower.

Now let's get someone 7 feet tall to do it ... bet they do it somewhat
faster.

Oh, but we don't have different movement rates for different races or
heights to reflect the realism of different stride lengths.

Nor do we have an encumberence rule.

To make up for this, you get the trade-off of increased protection for
decreased movement rate built into the mechanics.

However, there is also the ability to overcome these penalties with
the (fairly inexpensive) sprinting skill.

Certainly, the penalties to AGI, STR, and PWR aren't offset, but how else
can one increase one's character's DV merely with bankroll, not with ANY
expenditure of ep

> > 
> > Further, if the argument is "It should have been innovated by now ..."
> > along with "Yeah, just look at this character that can make THIS much
> > better armor ..." I wonder where the interest is.  If all these phantom
> > people are making innovations, why do so few player warrior/auger/marines
> > exhibit ANY interest in MAKING better armor.
> 
> Dom, Jander, Matt Fahler's old warrior that lasted a short time, and several
> other PCs have shown high interests in making armor and weaponry.  If
> you have a few adventurers who do it, then out of the millions of other
> folks in the world you'll have many that do it.
>
If one has a very small subset of the population that is the MOST
innovative in society interested in activity X then it does NOT stand to
reason that a larger distribution exists within society.
 
> And why do so few others show any interst in making it?  Simple, because
> AQ is about combat, and making your character better able to survive it,
> and few want to take the game months it takes to tinker with and build
> armor.  That is the stuff of true professional armorers, not dilletants
> like adventurers.
>

Well, I'm not gonna open up the can of what AQ is all about (you're
welcome, Greg) ... suffice it to say you take a more combat oriented
position than I.  (though I've been accused of taking a weird stance on
damn near all my characters by a good number of other players)
 
> > If fighting forces are those driving innovation
> > If adventureres are said fighting forces (taken to an Nth extreme)
> > If very few characters have actually developed improvements to armor
> 
> You place WAY too much significance on what 'adventurers' do.  There
> are far more mercs and soldiers out there than adventurers.  
> 

Jaern rotates around adventurers ... it is the function of the setting.
(Reminded of the "fairy cake" incident with Zaphod Beeblebrox  :)   )

> > 
> > Why does it stand to reason that armor has been driven to it's most
> > effeicient form by now ...
> 
> Because people want to survive that next fight.  Wars are NOT fought
> by adventurers.  

I'm not arguing that point

Your arguement is that armor is driven by its effectiveness, esp. in wars.
Wars are fought by armies.  Armies are taken from a cross section of
population at large and taken from the work force.  As the population at
large is under rate 5, IRON armor is tremendously effective in combat
between massed < rate 5ers.

> 
> > 
> > Oh, as far as superefficient 16th/17th century armor in the real world and
> > historic references ... Rennaisannce.  Short of the Industrial revolution
> > (and potentially today's information revolution) NOTHING matched the
> > amount of scientific development made throughout the world ...
> 
> You have no point here and don't know your history.  The industrial
> revolution brought about a shitload of change, that is indisputeable.
> Plate armor came onto the field of battle in early to mid 1400's.  From
> there it improved until its peak in the 1500's and in the 1600's it
> began to disappear because of the increasing effectiveness of firearms.
> It hung on and was used mainly as breast/back plates until the mid 1700's.
> 

My point is, as the hyperefficient plate of the 1500s to 1600s has been
the example cited time and time again.  However, that which allowed said
advancements to come about was indeed the Renaissance (spelled a variety
of ways throughout, I've noticed ... sorry).  The Ren. was spurred, at
least in part, by the system of Feudalism, and the desire of those in
power to extend their influence, (by bankrolling not only art, but
wars, intrigue, etc.) and therefore their holdings of land.

Now, as no such social construct exists with any sort of influence within
the game (though the Geleia setting has changed this somewhat) to direct
such change.  It cannot be asserted that such change has occurred.

> 
> > 
> > Now, make the point that Jaern has undergone some form of rennaissance,
> > and, as such , spur development of society in ALL areas (including war)
> > and I may play ball.  But I don't think such an assertion can be made.
> 
> Jaern already has rennaissance level technology, and quite far beyond it.
> Useable steam engines, advanced knowledge of aerodynamics(sky skimmers),
> rocketry, large quantitites of stable explosives, larger quantitites of
> unstable explosives, hydroponics, construction projects that span
> for hundreds of miles(the sea wall), submersibles with durations
> in hours, hydrofoils(onivero), and waterpumps capable of functioning
> for centuries(both with and without magic).  Need more?  I can go
> into magi-tech stuff if you'd like.
> 

And these were possible without any magic or alien (onivero) tech ... I
see.

If you wanna whip out the magic card:

Bankroller spends half of his $ on an earth mage and a water mage.
Strongest person he can find puts a bunch of shields in a big sack.
Water mage endwarfs him
The top of the bag is opened, and the earth mage rips off an Adamant.

Repeat as necessary

Hand out adamant shields to footsoldiers

OR,

one gets in his iron plate and whips off an Iron defence,

OR,

one gets in his iron plate and whips off a (insert spell name that plays
with DV here)

So yes, Wright, if one uses magic it is in all ways, save experience cost
superior to using plate armor within the current rules.

which brings me back to the previous point,

How else does one increase DVs without expending eps in some way?

As such, how is armor unbalanced within the mechanics of the game?

> 
> Wright
> 
> 


John Hogg			johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu

"I am amused by the simplicity of this game.  Send me your finest meats
and cheeses!"				--Kenny Mayne