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A discussion on MODs (was something about steel and weapons)

Steve Ames wrote:
> 

**munch discussion on shimmer + iron defense**

> 
> Hey... topic two: has anyone come up with a good explanation of
> what a DV actually is? Can anyone shed any light on why a a
> master combat artist cannot defend himself (ie increase his DVs)?

I believe the art of using attack prowess to defend yourself
was left to the priests of T'or.  This comes with their
various weapon and body drills.  Discussion has taken place
a long time ago about a "parry" skill and was quickly
shut down, reserving such talent for the T'orites.  I disagree
with it, but live with it as well.


> 
> A while back a few "items" got released that allowed the player
> to add half their mod to their DV. That actually worked out
> pretty well (from an experimental standpoint) until mods were
> bought way up into the 20s. Capping the MODs would bring this
> back into the "its working pretty well" range.

I like this idea...perhaps in only combat and grapple.  I can't
yet think of reasonable ways to protect yourself from the
arrow launched from 8 blocks away...aside from raising
one's agility or perception.

> 

**munch part about rating 2 DVs/MODs***

> 
> Take it to insane levels. I buy my strength up to 20 (hey, I'm

Insane levels, in W. Lafayette?  *grin*

> a muscle bound freak, you think people would hesitate to attack
> me anyway, but...) so I can buy my mod to 20. This gives me an
> average (un-armoured) DV of 20. Since the average stat starts
> at 12.. I've spent 26.4 rates to buy up strength and 16.8 rates
> buying mod (assuming warrier) so I'm now (at least) rate 45.

Agreed, rating 40 warrior vs. farmer...farmer has a 5% chance
of hitting, perhaps 10% (2 in 20).  And most Claude d'Warriors
could hit another Claude 95% of the time.



> 
> What have we created? We've created a system where a high rating
> warrior who is aware that he is being attacked will _NEVER_ be
> beaten by a farmer with a sword (short of the nasty crit and that's
> why crits are in the game). With the existing system that farmer
> has a 50% chance of hitting you regardless of your rate. Notice
> that I use the word "aware" above. All of the skill in the world
> won't save you if your caught by suprise.

I would say the average warrior that makes it to rating 40
probably has a few 15's, if not 20's, for stats that affect
DVs.

> 
> Given the relative costs of mods and once again certain backgrounds
> will, as it should be, never be able to stand toe-toe with a
> warrior. Making the class distinction sharper at higher levels.
> 
> On the subject of Mods... by using the associated stat we are saying
> that someone has to be monstrously strong to be considered a good
> swordsman? And have the WIL from hell to be a master wrestler?

In the case of having caps for Mods:
I think within the game, we are saying to pick up any piece
of forged metal and effectively hit someone with it
is based on sheer strength.  In the case of specializing in
a given weapon we are relying on the common sense of the
warrior to make either more precise attacks or multiple attacks.

We are saying that to just grab someone you have to be
strong of will, especially to grab someone with a 4' long
sharp object pointed in your direction.  But, again,
common sense on top of willpower will help you perfect
your skill.

Now, what's missing in all of this?  I believe AGI is
missing in the equation.

Hmm..what if we could BUY CDV/MDV/GDV with experience, 
capped by agility, or half of agility?

Make the base cost for CDV, MDV, GDV be 1.5 x base
cost for the respective Melee Modifier...capped by 
AGI x 0.5.  For warriors, base 300 all around.  
Now, does the warrior buy up his combat mod to 20,
or does he give himself some defense as well?
And, for the mage to defend himself in combat...
a gross 750.  Is it worth the cost?  I think
not when Iron Defense is a base 300...but such
is the choices we're allowed in AQ.

I like the idea presented above.


Personally, although I am on the bandwagon of seeing
some grossly high DVs out there...I think they are
in the minority.  I am not sure there are more than
a dozen characters with an average CDV/MDV of over
25 or so.


 Just a thought,
Pat


-- 
____________________________________________________
Patrick C. Collins      drunsen@ecicnet.org
Process Engineer and Learner of Life

---- Begin included message ----
> though...could just make a meta-rule that the greater magical protection
> overrides instead...i.e. the +1 from shimmer and +2 iron defense don't
> add...you get the +2 to the appropriate DV, and the shimmer affects the two
> otherwise unaffected DV.  Thoughts, anyone?

Sounds good. I've always treated armor as such. If you get extra
sized plate to wear over your chain, you just get plate... and some
extra negatives :) You will run into some implementation problems
(why won't a spell that makes my skin stronger work in conjunction 
with one that deflects blades and be cummulative?) but hey... magic
isn't a very well understood art and I'm sure the geeks at the mages
guild have some explanation involving disruptive magical field
theory.... in other words... PFM.

Hey... topic two: has anyone come up with a good explanation of
what a DV actually is? Can anyone shed any light on why a a
master combat artist cannot defend himself (ie increase his DVs)?

A while back a few "items" got released that allowed the player
to add half their mod to their DV. That actually worked out 
pretty well (from an experimental standpoint) until mods were
bought way up into the 20s. Capping the MODs would bring this
back into the "its working pretty well" range.

Consider. At rate two (with no mods) the average DV is 10. So on
a normal roll I have a 50% chance of hitting you. At rate 10 
(with a MOD of 6) the DV goes up to 13 and I have a +6 to hit. So
my odds of hitting have gone up to 65%. But a with no mod, the
ods of hitting me have gone down to 35%. When people learn to
fight, most are learning for self defense, no to become faceless
killers. I don't want to have to take damage and then hurt the
person. I don't even want to be hit.

Take it to insane levels. I buy my strength up to 20 (hey, I'm
a muscle bound freak, you think people would hesitate to attack
me anyway, but...) so I can buy my mod to 20. This gives me an
average (un-armoured) DV of 20. Since the average stat starts
at 12.. I've spent 26.4 rates to buy up strength and 16.8 rates
buying mod (assuming warrier) so I'm now (at least) rate 45.
A person with no mod needs a natural 20 to hit me. My peers auto
hit me. It'll take me almost 7 rates to go any higher and my
peers will be buying a sword skill so it becomes a game of
diminishing returns.

What have we created? We've created a system where a high rating
warrior who is aware that he is being attacked will _NEVER_ be
beaten by a farmer with a sword (short of the nasty crit and that's
why crits are in the game). With the existing system that farmer
has a 50% chance of hitting you regardless of your rate. Notice
that I use the word "aware" above. All of the skill in the world
won't save you if your caught by suprise.

Given the relative costs of mods and once again certain backgrounds
will, as it should be, never be able to stand toe-toe with a
warrior. Making the class distinction sharper at higher levels.

On the subject of Mods... by using the associated stat we are saying
that someone has to be monstrously strong to be considered a good
swordsman? And have the WIL from hell to be a master wrestler?

						-Steve
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