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Re: Lengthy, but simpler (I hope) Drowning (fwd)
A bit from Greg (replied to me again, not the list)
John Hogg johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu
"Adventure? Excitement? A jedi craves not these things."
-Silent Bob, "Mallrats"
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:01:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Greg Mowczko <mooch@ns1.cioe.com>
To: johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Lengthy, but simpler (I hope) Drowning
Ok John here is my posting.
> From: John Hogg <johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
>
> Read this all the way through before you respond, please
Done and read a few followups as well.
> OK ... Drowning ...
Not OK but we understand :)
> First off, Yes, I DO have lifeguard experience (6 years certified, Red
> Cross) and have assisted WSI's and WSII's (Water Safety Instructors and
> Water Safety Instructor Instructors (lifeguard teachers)) in training
> lifeguards by playing a drowning victim (any commentary here, Sean, and I
> beat you :) ) for at least three seperate classes beyond the classes I
> took (I mean it, Sean :) ).
Good to hear you have exp. ( heh he was a vitim )
> Now, some definitions:
> =====================
>
> active victim: a concious, thrashing, drowing victim that is usually
> found near the surface of the water, and will usually grab
> onto damn near anything he can to stay afloat (including
> and especially lifeguards).
> Active victims are usually paniced, but many can and do
> move in the water, grab flotation devices, grab ropes,
> and otherwise respond to aid or try to get out of the
> water themselves.
>
> passive victim: an unconscious or exhausted drowning victim that may be
> nearly or completely unresponsive. Can be found floating
> on the surface, sinking towards the bottom or on the
> bottom of a body of water.
>
> NOTE: passive victims can become active (though it is not the
> norm) and vice versa (which IS the normal course of
> events).
Ok real world definitions here. But in game all vitims ( ie why were calling
them drowning ) are not on top getting ANY air even half-ass air (reasoning
for a few WIL checks ).
> drowning: (working definition) being in the water and unable to
> get oxygen (via lungs or gills or whatever ... fish CAN
> drown) in a regular manner to breathe.
> example: someone who dives into shallow water and
> knocks themselves unconcious with their
> entry is drowning.
> example2: an accomplished swimmer who suffers a
> severe cramp that hinders movement is
> drowning.
Example 1 is fine but 2 is not drowning they are just not swimming ( unless
the cramp is enough to keep from treading water and sinking happens )
> Proposal:
> ========
>
> Swimming is a skill. In fact, it is THE skill to allow someone in the
> water to not only move about in it, but also get oxygen in a manner that
> is agreeable with that persons physiology (i.e. in the lungs or across
> the gills (at 2d6 off the skill check) for those characters who use/have
> them). Crawl, Butterfly, Breaststroke, Backstroke, Freaking Doggie
> Paddle, it's all swimming.
>
> Therefore, by definition, if you make your swimming skill check, you're
> ============
> not drowning. (we seem to have universal concencus on this one)
>
> However, if you fail the skill check ... welcome to victimization :)
>
> Oh, btw, as far as the whole "but we live on a water world ... everyone
> ought to have swiming" argument:
>
> Yes, they ought to, and it's a pretty freaking cheap skill to boot. Buy
> it.
Well yeah I always by it somewhere withing my first several rates.
> Enter the default:
> =================
>
> If you make your default, you are an active victim. This isn't so bad.
> Active victims can (and usually will) move in the water. Keep in mind,
> though, they're not so much controling their movement in the water as they
> are beating the water into submission :)
No. AQ rules state if you miss your skill check you can try to default ( or
just try to default staight off the bat. If you make a default this is just
as good as actually knowing what the hell you are doing NO difference in game.
> I would argue that a GM ought to make those defaulting swimming make more
> frequent checks than those using the skill (as they're working MUCH
> harder), but I'm a right bastard, and it makes mechanics more difficult
> than it needs to. While I'd argue the point, I'd likely not RULE that
> way.
Yeah maybe. Probably wouldn't run it either. The less rolling I have them
do the more playing can occur.
> Blowing the default:
> ===================
>
> This is bad.
Very.
> Welcome to being an active victim who CAN'T control how they get oxygen.
In the game I would almost always say they are sinking. ( We were ALOT of
equipment ). Brings up a point though. What are the percentages of sinkers
to floaters? ( no Wright I am not being sick ). I tend to still be bouyant
if I expell all the breath I can while some people are rocks and others
have a hard time going under.
> Please make a 1D health check to remain concious.
> next round 2D
> next round 3D etc.
>
> Why not use big tables comparing health, extending time, et al?
>
> 1) more complicated than it needs to be
Hey if it is a complication that 1. lets me live or 2. keeps me from looking
like a dick ( GM wise ) I'm for it.
> 2) each cascading check can be stressed (allowing about 20-30 seconds of
> darn near guaranteed conciousness)
>
> 3) casting should be allowed while drowing (provided the health checks are
> being made) so those with waterbreathing or other potentially useful
> spells can use them (though they should have been cast BEFORE hopping into
> the drink)
Yep but sometimes you don't have that prep time.
> Casting while swimming, on the other hand may require some
> hefty swiming skill checks every round for the duration of the casting (to
> not use the requisite arm(s) to stay afloat, swim, etc.) perhaps +2d6 or
> +3d6 with applicable verbal and handed casting skills knocking down the
> check. (+1d6, each for left hand, right hand, and verbal components).
Casting a 1 round spell is 1 HANDED. The reason you can't cast one handed
spells while bound is there must be something restricting your wrist/forearm
stopping FULL range of movement.
> 4) skilled swimmers should be able to assist those having difficulty ...
>
> An attempted rescue disrupts spellcasting for both rescuer and
> victim.
>
> Make a skill check at 1d6 higher for assisting a passive victim,
> 2d6 for an active victim. This check must be made before the
> victim can move/be moved.
OK. As long as you consider active as those WIL checks being failed before
the sinking starts.
> If the rescuer fails the new swimming check, he may disengage
> from the victim the next round.
>
> Upon disengaging, the rescuer needs to make a swiming check of
> the original difficulty.
>
> If the victim is passive, he remains passive. If the victim is
> active, allow a swimming check of original difficulty as well. If this
> check is failed, begin cascading health checks (at 1D6)
So you give the drownee a chance to recover with some new footing ( contrary
to your later arguments in a followup post )
> 5) those that can't swim and get stuck in deep water DO drown ... buy the
> skill.
Always
> As far as the arguement about "I can hold my breath for x seconds, so my
> character should be able to hold his breath for at least y seconds before
> making health checks."
>
> Who DOESN'T try to get a deep breath before popping (voluntarily or
> involuntarily) into the water?
> By not making the skill check:
> a) you can't control when/IF you get another breath
You are not in a place to get that breath.
> b) your character ought to REALIZE he can't get another breath
> c) welcome to lung-burning panic
Fun. Fun fun.
> d) according to my classes (thank God I've never had an actual
> victim go passive) it is a NATURAL REACTION to begin thrashing
> the arms vigorously in an attempt to keep the head above water.
> This is why the thrashing of arms is a telltale sign of an
> active drowning victim. While this thrashing can help to a
> degree, it is thoroughly exhausting (I know, I've simulated it)
> and leads to a huge quantity of water being splashed into the
> face. End result, an exhausted/unconcious victim who did NOT
> get a decent breath.
> e) the duration for simply holding one's breath is SIGNIFICANTLY
> longer than the duration one can hold one's breath while doing
> something exhausting/strenuous. (like thrashing)
I'll give you this.
> Example: I used to be able to swim 100 meters underwater in
> about 45 seconds (a lesurely pace for 100m!), but
> I would pop up at the end of said distance GASPING
> for air, with my eyes nearly bugging out and my
> lungs feeling like they were bleeding. At the
> same time, I could hold my breath, sitting for 2
> minutes (give or take) without much discomfort.
> Keep in mind, I was not paniced during any of
> this, either (could stand up and get a breath if
> I needed it), and was skilled in swimming.
Used to swim a length and a half of an Olympic sized pool underwater before
deciding to get another breath ( read as: didn't want to chance some schmuck
preventing me trying to get my breath when I went back up and my "reserve"
was low )
> Unconciousness:
> ==============
>
> Character has fallen unconcious due to failed health check (and is now
> aspirating water (in a bad way for lizards) if anything.
Lizards? Sorry lizards don't drown in water ( unless your choking them ) or
the GM is being nasty by saying that this water just happens to not be
aerated.
> Are they dead? Not necessarily.
>
> I agree that loss of conciousness, respiration, and even heartbeat don't
> mean you're irrevocably lounging in Infero. I agree MODERN 20th CENTURY
> MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY (none of which of the capitalized words should exist in
> fantasy-based AQ, save perhaps CENTURY, but you get my point) can bring
> someone back in that situation. In some cases CPR (also developed in the
> 20th century) can bring someone back. However, even now, if a victim is
> not removed from the water, there is very little that can be done to bring
> about conciousness.
>
> However, in AQ there are several magical effects not only to bring about
> conciousness in a direct, magical manner, but also to potentially
> manipulate the water that has been aspirated so it is out of the system
> (which via GM adjucation may be enough to have the unconcious character
> begin breathing on his own and regain conciousness naturally)
>
> To incorporate the 5 minute window mentioned in previous posts as well as
> in my lifeguard, CPR and First Aid training, I suggest the GM roll 1D6 and
> this is the number of minutes between unconciousness and death for the
> character. At the end of the D6 span, allow a DI.
This d6 works for me as a possibility. Read my bit about the encourage
roll playing by not letting the others know the time limit and have the
player know and try a DI. Then wait to see how determined the others are
at getting the player.
> John Hogg johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu
> "Adventure? Excitement? A jedi craves not these things."
The following is comments from Kris and BJ and John about John's post and some
more commentary from me. Look John at how much I can spew just cause you
asked so nicely :)
> Subject: Fixin' holes (Was Re: Lengthy, but simpler (I hope) Drowning)
>
> > > Enter the default:
> > > =================
> > >
> > > If you make your default, you are an active victim. This isn't so bad.
> > > Active victims can (and usually will) move in the water. Keep in mind,
> > > though, they're not so much controling their movement in the water as they
> > > are beating the water into submission :)
> > >
> > If I understand this correct, you want people who MAKE their default
> > swimming to be active victims, meaning probably going to screw up
> > soon and start to drown and need assistance. If this is correct I
> > don't agree with it. If you make the check you make the check.
> >
I agress with BJ and Kris here as stated earlier. DEFAULTing means you made
your check ( albeit not the proper way but good enough )
> Kris & BJ
>
> My fault for poor wording ... If you default, YES you are an active
> victim. That is, you're in the water and can't swim (though you fake it
> well). You're also probibally not panicking.
No. ( except for the not panicking part. Why would you panic if you made
your check :) )
> Biggest thing I left out ... (add after "beating into submission")
>
> Making the default DOES let you operate as if you have make the skill
> check.(if you're SWIMMING is a semantic arguement)
>
> which is why the commentary on making the check more frequently was thrown
> in in the original post.
>
So here you say they aren't drowning ( game terms ) but are ( RL term ).
> > Hmm.. I would still prefer the whole health check thing to start a
> > few rounds after you blow your swimming skill. Maybe a will check
> > or something to take into account your passive/active thing. I.E.
> > if on the first or second round after you fail your swimming check
> > you can make a 3d6 will check to try swimming again next round. IF
> > you still fail you can make a 4d6 check the next round to try
> > swimming yet another round, after that you have screwed up so bad
> > you are not thinking anymore and have sucked in some water and the
> > whole health check for unconsciousness kicks in.
> >
> > I.E.
> >
> > Round
> > 1 Fail Swimming skill
> > 2 3D6 Vs Will
> > 3 If made will check try swimming check again,
> > If fail 4d6 Vs will
> > 4 If Swimming fine, if maid 4d6 will try
> > swimming, if fail 1d6 Vs health
> > 5 2d6 versus health (assuming
> > failed other swimming/will)
> > 6 3d6 versus health
> >
I like my chart better :) 2 reasons 1. it lets some more time go by before
your dead and 2. its mine
> I don't agree.
> 1) It's a BUNCH of different checks here where the low level health
> checks in the original post simulate holding breath (granted, with a
> relatively short duration compared to the values being bandied about
> 20-30 seconds vs 60-90 seconds) with no problem. Again, more for activity
> 2) If you can't hold your breath any longer you don't suck in "some
> water." You go for a lung (or two) full.
> 3) You've already been given a swimming check and chance to default, why
> would you allow 2 more skill (and 2 more default) chances after the first
> is blown? If my auger blows mountain climbing, he doesn't get 2 more
> checks beyond his default to keep from falling. The default is the
> characters second chance. If that's blown, tough toenails. Buy the
> skill, spend the 1260 eps to get it to 6.
Remember where I said you contradict yourself? Right here is where. You
said let someone try to roll again before and now you say no? Ok I'm
being a technical ass this has a different circumstance but its a
timing thing still. I think that if I miss my mountain climbing check
I fall. There is nothing to stop my fall ( unless I am tied off ). If
I am tied off I get to reroll my check and try to continue. Same applies
for swimming. I miss my check I start to sink I am damn going to try
and get back to the top ( I am now your ACTIVE victim ). My ACTIVITY is
trying to swim to the top.
> 4)I can't will myself to swim. (course, half the time I can't will myself
> to not reset the alarm clock, either)
Ahh but you can will yourself to stop panicking. Us adventurers don't flinch
at much. The guy standing next to you turns into a Balrog what do you do?
You kill him.
> > > 3) casting should be allowed while drowing (provided the health checks are
> > > being made) so those with waterbreathing or other potentially useful
> > > spells can use them (though they should have been cast BEFORE hopping into
> > > the drink)
> > > Casting while swimming, on the other hand may require some
> > > hefty swiming skill checks every round for the duration of the casting (to
> > > not use the requisite arm(s) to stay afloat, swim, etc.) perhaps +2d6 or
> > > +3d6 with applicable verbal and handed casting skills knocking down the
> > > check. (+1d6, each for left hand, right hand, and verbal components).
> >
> > Defiantly an extra 2d6 to swimming to cast as normal since you would
> > only be able to swim with your legs (treading with no arms is hard)
> > and of course overall movement restricted to 1/5 swimming movement
> > rate.
> >
>
> After furter review ... drop the additional 1D6 for verbal component, and
> double check to see if the casting skills can be used in conjunction with
> the swimming skill
>
> > > 4) skilled swimmers should be able to assist those having difficulty ...
> > >
> > > An attempted rescue disrupts spellcasting for both rescuer and
> > > victim.
> > >
> > > Make a skill check at 1d6 higher for assisting a passive victim,
> > > 2d6 for an active victim. This check must be made before the
> > > victim can move/be moved.
>
> Change to:
>
> Make a skill check at 1d6 higher for assisting a passive victim,
> 2d6 higher for an active victim. This check must be made before
> the victim can move/be moved.
>
> Re-reading in tweak mode made a weak arguement for a flat 2d6 check to go
> after an active victim.
Ok took me a while to figure out the missing additional you were talking about
good catch I just read it in while some rule monkey would go "cool it is
easier to save an ACTIVE victim in freezing choppy water than to just try and
save my own ass" ( read 2d6 vs. 3d6 )
> > > If the rescuer fails the new swimming check, he may disengage
> > > from the victim the next round.
> > >
> > > Upon disengaging, the rescuer needs to make a swiming check of
> > > the original difficulty.
> > >
> > > If the victim is passive, he remains passive. If the victim is
> > > active, allow a swimming check of original difficulty as well. If this
> > > check is failed, begin cascading health checks (at 1D6)
> >
> > Okay if we go by my suggestion you are an active victim while making
> > the will checks and a passive victim while making the health checks.
> > By skill check do you mean that the rescuer must make his normal
> > swimming skill plus 1d6 for passive victim or do you mean another
> > skill check all together? I would lean toward the plus.
> >
>
> Yes, allow entirely new swiming checks, not modified by assisting a victim
> to start swimming again for both concious parties. (potentially as low as
> a 1d6 swimming check)
>
> 1) don't attempt a rescue if you barely make the checks normally.
> 2) I'm being nice and saying ANY help is HELP for a drowning victim. (even
> if they fail, it gives another 20 or so seconds before unconciousness to
> just help the poor sod who's trying to respirate water
> (by restarting checks at 1d6)
> >
>
> Other Comments:
>
> Respiration and heart rate:
> (for Joe ... someone please (wright or greg) forward this to him)
> There's no set of rules for heart stoppage vs respiration stoppage
>
> First aid training dictates that if the heart has stopped, then
> respiration has as well, but not necessarily vice versa.
>
> this is why in the original post I included a comment about finding a way
> to force conciousness or to drain water from victim's lungs may be
> sufficient to save the victim (restoring respiration before 1d6 minute
> window is up)
>
> for simplicity's sake, assume the 1d6 roll is for both pulmonary and brain
> death.
yep.
>
> Lizards:
> (for Rick)
> While lizards (and other waterbreathers) CAN drown, they
> don't usually. Assume they can voluntarily sink and find suficient oxygen
> under normal circumstances. Drowning should only occur when lizards (and
> those who emulate their waterbreathing) blow their swimming check (which
> they attempt at 2d6 less) under treacherous circumstances. The fact that
> it would take a ballpark of 4d6 swimming check to even realisticly BEGIN
> to drown for waterbreathers tends to support this.
>
> For lack of a better term, they hit a pocket of water, or have done
> something that has left them "short of breath" (having someone assist
> will likely take care of things)
>
> Under normal circumstances, waterbreathers may cast as normal. Ignore
> casting penalties.
Well duh :)
> nonbreathers can't drown.
But its fun to try and drown them.
> John Hogg johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu
While this last bit comes close. One of my questions about drowning was
not drowning but you have no air. IE you go into a room without breathable
air.
Greg