Fixin' holes (Was Re: Lengthy, but simpler (I hope) Drowning)

[John Hogg <johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu>]

On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Kris Ames wrote:

> > Enter the default:
> > =================
> > 
> > If you make your default, you are an active victim.  This isn't so
> bad.
> > Active victims can (and usually will) move in the water.  Keep in
> mind,
> > though, they're not so much controling their movement in the water
> as they
> > are beating the water into submission  :)
> > 
> If I understand this correct, you want people who MAKE their default
> swimming to be active victims, meaning probably going to screw up
> soon and start to drown and need assistance.  If this is correct I
> don't agree with it.  If you make the check you make the check.
>

Kris & BJ

My fault for poor wording ... If you default, YES you are an active
victim.  That is, you're in the water and can't swim (though you fake it
well).  You're also probibally not panicking.

Biggest thing I left out ... (add after "beating into submission")

Making the default DOES let you operate as if you have make the skill
check.(if you're SWIMMING is a semantic arguement)

which is why the commentary on making the check more frequently was thrown
in in the original post.

> 
> Hmm.. I would still prefer the whole health check thing to start a
> few rounds after you blow your swimming skill.  Maybe a will check
> or something to take into account your passive/active thing.  I.E.
> if on the first or second round after you fail your swimming check
> you can make a 3d6 will check to try swimming again next round.  IF
> you still fail you can make a 4d6 check the next round to try
> swimming yet another round, after that you have screwed up so bad
> you are not thinking anymore and have sucked in some water and the
> whole health check for unconsciousness kicks in.
> 
> I.E.
> 
> Round
>    1                   Fail Swimming skill
>    2                          3D6 Vs Will
>    3                   If made will check try swimming check again,
> If fail 4d6 Vs will
>    4                   If Swimming fine, if maid 4d6 will try
> swimming, if fail 1d6 Vs health
>    5                                 2d6 versus health (assuming
> failed other swimming/will)
>    6                                 3d6 versus health
> 
> 
>     etc.               
>

I don't agree.
1) It's a BUNCH of different checks here where the low level health
checks in the original post simulate holding breath (granted, with a
relatively short duration compared to the values being bandied about
20-30 seconds vs 60-90 seconds) with no problem.  Again, more for activity
2) If you can't hold your breath any longer you don't suck in "some
water."  You go for a lung (or two) full.
3) You've already been given a swimming check and chance to default, why
would you allow 2 more skill (and 2 more default) chances after the first
is blown?  If my auger blows mountain climbing, he doesn't get 2 more
checks beyond his default to keep from falling.  The default is the
characters second chance.  If that's blown, tough toenails.  Buy the
skill, spend the 1260 eps to get it to 6.
4)I can't will myself to swim. (course, half the time I can't will myself
to not reset the alarm clock, either)

> > 3) casting should be allowed while drowing (provided the health
> checks are
> > being made) so those with waterbreathing or other potentially
> useful
> > spells can use them (though they should have been cast BEFORE
> hopping into
> > the drink) 
> > 	Casting while swimming, on the other hand may require some
> > hefty swiming skill checks every round for the duration of the
> casting (to
> > not use the requisite arm(s) to stay afloat, swim, etc.) perhaps
> +2d6 or
> > +3d6 with applicable verbal and handed casting skills knocking
> down the
> > check.  (+1d6, each for left hand, right hand, and verbal
> components).
> 
> 
> Defiantly an extra 2d6 to swimming to cast as normal since you would
> only be able to swim with your legs (treading with no arms is hard)
> and of course overall movement restricted to 1/5 swimming movement
> rate.
> 
>

After furter review ... drop the additional 1D6 for verbal component, and
double check to see if the casting skills can be used in conjunction with
the swimming skill

> > 4) skilled swimmers should be able to assist those having
> difficulty ...
> > 
> > 	An attempted rescue disrupts spellcasting for both rescuer and
> > 	victim.
> > 
> > 	Make a skill check at 1d6 higher for assisting a passive victim,
> > 	2d6 for an active victim.  This check must be made before the
> > 	victim can move/be moved.

Change to:

Make a skill check at 1d6 higher for assisting a passive victim,
2d6 higher for an active victim.  This check must be made before
the victim can move/be moved.

Re-reading in tweak mode made a weak arguement for a flat 2d6 check to go
after an active victim.

> > 
> > 	If the rescuer fails the new swimming check, he may disengage
> > 	from the victim the next round.
> > 
> > 	Upon disengaging, the rescuer needs to make a swiming check of
> > 	the original difficulty.
> > 
> > 	If the victim is passive, he remains passive.  If the victim is
> > 	active, allow a swimming check of original difficulty as well. 
> If this
> > 	check is failed, begin cascading health checks (at 1D6)
> 
> 
> Okay if we go by my suggestion you are an active victim while making
> the will checks and a passive victim while making the health checks.
>  By skill check do you mean that the rescuer must make his normal
> swimming skill plus 1d6 for passive victim or do you mean another
> skill check all together?  I would lean toward the plus.
>

Yes, allow entirely new swiming checks, not modified by assisting a victim 
to start swimming again for both concious parties. (potentially as low as
a 1d6 swimming check)

1) don't attempt a rescue if you barely make the checks normally.
2) I'm being nice and saying ANY help is HELP for a drowning victim. (even
if they fail, it gives another 20 or so seconds before unconciousness to
just help the poor sod who's trying to respirate water
(by restarting checks at 1d6)
>  

Other Comments:

Respiration and heart rate:
(for Joe ... someone please (wright or greg) forward this to him)
There's no set of rules for heart stoppage vs respiration stoppage

First aid training dictates that if the heart has stopped, then
respiration has as well, but not necessarily vice versa.

this is why in the original post I included a comment about finding a way
to force conciousness or to drain water from victim's lungs may be
sufficient to save the victim (restoring respiration before 1d6 minute
window is up)

for simplicity's sake, assume the 1d6 roll is for both pulmonary and brain
death.

Lizards:
(for Rick)
While lizards (and other waterbreathers) CAN drown, they
don't usually.  Assume they can voluntarily sink and find suficient oxygen
under normal circumstances.  Drowning should only occur when lizards (and
those who emulate their waterbreathing) blow their swimming check (which
they attempt at 2d6 less) under treacherous circumstances.  The fact that
it would take a ballpark of 4d6 swimming check to even realisticly BEGIN
to drown for waterbreathers tends to support this.

For lack of a better term, they hit a pocket of water, or have done
something that has left them "short of breath" (having someone assist
will likely take care of things)

Under normal circumstances, waterbreathers may cast as normal.  Ignore
casting penalties.

nonbreathers can't drown.




John Hogg				johnhogg@expert.cc.purdue.edu
"Adventure?  Excitement?  A jedi craves not these things."
						-Silent Bob, "Mallrats"