Re: Holy Symbols

[Wright Frazier <khelek@ns1.cioe.com>]

> While it certainly adds flavor to the game to have different symbols
> for the various regions/sects of a specific deity, I think I need to raise
> a flag here.  I only have two points to make.  Succinctly:
> 
> 1)  As has been mentioned before, we should not do something just
> for the sake of doing it.  I feel that the flavor added by using different
> symbols is easily overborne by the confusion that will be introduced
> as a result.  By confusion, I am referring to the fact that everyone,
> especially new players, will now have to keep lists of holy symbols
> on hand so they know what sect they are dealing with at any particular
> time.  Also, let's say that I follow Anubis and don't want to align myself
> with any particular sect, what symbol do I wear?  Hence, we should
> not add this complication _just_ for the sake of added flavor.

This 'complication' already exists as a few faiths already in use
do not have one listed.  Further this 'complication' isn't a problem
from what I've seen and experienced.  The 2 'new' ones introduced
are easily remembered, and have already been adopted/used by at least
3 players, and everyone who has been playing in Geleia knows what
the Jackle's head and sword means.  

If you don't want to align yourself with a sect, your choice, use the
standard symbol, or whatever you want.  

Your notion of 'unnecessary' complication is not a valid one.  Its easy
to follow.  You have the traditional sect(by the book) who use the
traditional symbol in the reformed church, which just happens to be
the dominant sect in Southham.  Further there will be a writeup, quite
similiar to the one in the book(which by the way does not list what
the holy symbol is) that will also include what the symbol of the Orthodoxy
is.


> 
> 2)  Every major religion today has many different sects and sub-sects.
> However, _all_ Christians view the Cross as their symbol, _all_ Jews
> view the Star of David as their symbol, etc.  Please do not try to argue
> that they would have different symbols as a result of internal schism;
> that argument will not fly.  Just look at the Protestants and the Catholics
> in Great Britain; same 'holy symbol' yet much killing of each other despite
> their common deity.  Wright, please feel free to point out other historical
> support for my argument; I know there is quite a bit of it, but I'm not the
> history major here.

Why should I not argue this?  Its a valid arguement born out by real world
history.  The Tau Cross, the Iron Cross, the Celtic Cross, the Jerusalem
Cross, Cara Vaca Crucifix, Anchor Crucifix, and most importantly
the Orthodox Cross.

The Orthodox faith uses a cross with 3 bars.  The top bar bears the
inscription "Jesus Christ,King of the Jews"  The middle bars are where
Chris's hands are nailed, and the lower bar is for representing a middle
support bar that made life on the cross even more hellish.  So it looked
something like this:

			||
			||
		     ========
			||
		==================
			||
		     ========
			||
			||
			||

That is SIGNIFICANTLY different from the catholic and protestant crosses.
So your arguement that different crosses did not exist is bogus.  Different
sects DID use different symbols of their faith, though the major symbol
was based on 1 thing, the cross. 

Further the use of icon's(images) caused a _HUGE_ schism in the christian
church about 500 ad or so I believe(can't remember the exact date).  This
use of 'symbols' resulted in what is now the Orthodox and Catholic sides
of Christianity.

Further your example of the english using different crosses is also
bogus.  The Celtic Cross(or Cross of Iona) looks _MUCH_ different
than the standard cross.  The Celtic Cross(used in Ireland) is the
standard cross but with a halo(or wreath) around the crossing point.
This is significantly different than the cross used by the anglican faith
which is where most American(Baptist, Methodist, ect...) faiths come from
and get their concept of the cross from.

> In summary, the only justification I can think of to have different symbols
> is for added flavor, but the resulting added confusion, I feel, completely
> outweighs that single benefit.

When it comes to enjoyment and flavor that people like, there is no
such thing as 'outweighing' the benefits.  I know at least 2 players(not
me) have gotten a considerable bit of enjoyment and incorporate the
differences in sects and holy symbols for their characters.  That
completely justifies any of the supposed 'confusion' that this will
generate, which I don't think it'll generate any.  If you explain it
once, even briefly, people get the idea.  There are already 2 orthodox
anubians in play, and without the writeup, they see the differences
after a brief explaination.

> 
> However, a great way (I feel) to add that flavor without muddling up the
> core symbol used by the followers of a Deity can also be taken from
> modern religion.  Certainly each sect would have different 'trappings';
> different ceremonial vestments, different dogma, subtle differences in
> holy text translation (I could easily see an entirely different sect of Neptune
> being founded as a result of translating their holy text into Dwarvish), etc..
> While I am referring to 'modern' religion, I am certain that Wright can
> substantiate that my argument holds true even as far back as before the
> 'birth' of Christianity.  How many different ways have each of the ancient
> Roman, Greek, and Egyptian deities been worshiped?

Trappings are already done.  Differnt worship styles, pondering it, but
not sure I wanted some folks to start worshipping a male version of
Osiris.  Further, the 'image' of the god wouldn't vary that much, afterall
they do show up quite often.

> 
> On a related topic, is Scrogg dedicated strictly to fornication or no?  If not,
> then his symbol should just simply not be a phallus.  Such a symbol would
> just be an added 'trapping' of those followers of Scrogg who focused on
> that aspect of Scrogg; but not all followers would have need of that trapping.
> So, since this deity is strictly local anyway, if he is not strictly dedicated to
> fornication, can we change his symbol to something a little more in line with
> the true nature of that religion?

Alternate symbols for different views of the faith.


Wright



> 
> Lyle
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Wright Frazier [SMTP:khelek@ns1.cioe.com]
> 
> My personal view is that they are regional and/or by sect.  In geleia
> the orthodox anubians use a stylized jackles head crossed with a
> sword.  The reformed use the standard sideways A, unless I come up
> with something better.
> 
> An order of holy warriors of neptune use the symbol of a wave cresting
> over a trident for their symbol.
> 
> The few priests of scrogg in geleia don't go around with a penis hanging
> from their necks.  They'll use something different as soon as I get around
> to figuring out what.
> 
> anyways, you get the idea.  i think it should definately be by region
> and/or sect.
> 
> Wright
> 
>