Re: we need to argue more...

[Wright Frazier <khelek@ns1.cioe.com>]

> My reply to your message is this.  Wrestling skill is a temporary skill
> that was just to be tested.  I would think that its overwhelming power
> that stems from its hasty creation would merit a much higher base cost.  

Agreed, but tried it, along with juggling pummel/immobilize/punching/
	kicking a bit.  failed.  *shrug*  Got nixed cause Priests of
	T'or, not marines, are martial artists.

> 
> You ask rob what he thinks about marines as compared to warriors with
> skill, you know the answer.

Rob's warrior also has some serious mutates and magical items that
	let him routinely do 80+pts of damage a round and to not
	be grappled more than a few rounds by giving serious electric
	shocks.  There are always exceptions, Claude is the biggest.

	With a 2 marines I whipped Elsinor, Mogradin, and severa other
	folks in a game.  Neither of those two have the magical boosting
	that claude does.

> 
> Immobilize has always been that way, but some unarmored areas are more out
> of the way and require a higher check.
> 
> Regadless of effectiveness, warriors have all but 2 weapon skills (or
> three?).  The only ones that are up for debate are punching and kicking
> which have never been written up or even put in a errata.  Some even want
> to change these and their base costs.  I just want a write up.

Tried that, got rejected(see above martial arts reference).  Someone
else can try.  Or we just leave it so warriors AND marines are buying
it at BC.

re: Inventing weapons for skills.  If they are cleared by Dan as marine
weapons, then yes.  Which was done a year ago when I asked about the
following and he said okay.
					Strike	Thrown	Max	Impale
Type:	Str:	DV:	Weapon	Rate	Damage	Damage	Range	Damage
P	6	1	Foil	1	1d4	1d3	15	1d4+2
P	8	1	Epee	1	1d4	1d4	15	1d4+4
P	9	1	Rapier	1	1d6	1d4	15	1d6+4
E	12	1	Sabre	1	1d8	1d4	15	1d10+5
P	6	1	Dagger	1	1d4	1d2	25	1d3
P	7	2	Main-	1	1d3	1d2	15	1d3
			Gauche
P	7	1	Stilleto1	1d4	1d4	15	1d4+1
P	6	2	Parrying1	1d2	1	15	1d2
D	10	1	Buckler	1	1	-	--	--

Wright

> 
> I think that if marines can just invent weapons for skills, it is only a
> matter of time until marine missile weapons get invented just for the
> skill, and they just make themselves the uber-warrior.
> 
> Jevan
> 
> 
> On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Wright Frazier wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I started thinking about this, and I have to disagree fully that
> > it would hamper warriors in any way.  The highest damage any of
> > those weapons do is 1d8(Sabre), 1d6(rapier and estoc), and 1d4(main-gauche).
> > I don't see how this would take anything away from warriors.  Warriors
> > are still the only ones that get a d10, d12, and a d20+4 weapon(the lance).
> > I would argue heavily that warriors are still the weapon skill gods, and
> > that Marines get no increase in power, just an increase in variety.
> > They already have a d8 weapon that is very versitile(the maroglave).
> > 
> > Further, if warriors are 'obsolete', and marines are the combat
> > gods, then 4 weapons skills being juggled aren't going to fix or address
> > the problem.  Its things like Immobilize, pummeling, wrestling, etc... that
> > make Marines better in a fight usually. Since marines can  
> > immobilize to get around armor, and making you take a full round to
> > stand up, a Marine is the match of anyone in a fight because noone has
> > a grapple mod for shit.  I grapple you, and then do a few locks till
> > you are at a 7 die check on your own, then I indian burn you to death,
> > or Kosh you.  
> > 
> > btw, here is a quote from the book:
> > 	"A quick blow to certain body areas can immobilize an opponent.
> > 	The area (solar plexus, neck, etc.) must be unprotected, and
> > 	certainly unarmored.  Roll 2d6.  If the total is less to or
> > 	less than the skill rank, the opponent collapses and
> > 	cannot take any actions for 3d6 rounds."
> > That has nothing to do with knocking the wind out of someone as some
> > folks would say.  You can immobilize people with a blow to the temples
> > to stun them, to the ears and burst their ear drums, to the groing,
> > to the knee, or various other nerve centers.  So unless you have
> > full plate and a helmet on, a Marine is gonna get you.
> > 
> > Weapon skills are not where the power of the marine lies, weapon skills
> > are secondary really, its things like immobilize and wrestling that
> > makes marines the true terrors of the game.
> > 
> > Examples:
> > 	1 warrior vs 1 marine.  If the marine wins init and gets the
> > 	grapple, he most likely wins.  If the warrior wins init and
> > 	hits, he might kill the marine, but the marine will still
> > 	get the grapple unless a crit comes into play, and then the
> > 	marine wins if he gets the grapple.
> > 
> > 	1 marine vs 2 warriors.  stalemate as the marine plays toss
> > 	the monkey with the 2 warriors.  One is flying as the other
> > 	gets up from being grappled and thrown.
> > 
> > 	2 marines vs 1 warrior. warrior dies, hands down less the 2
> > 	marines got dick for DP or he gets a crit.
> > 
> > 	Thats just using the wrestling skill.  Add something like
> > 	immobilize into it, and a respectably skilled marine will
> > 	drop 1 warrior/round.
> > 
> > So if ya wanna move the weapon skills to Warrior, hey cool, I got
> > no problem with that, just realize that is not gonna fix anything
> > in my opinion.  Granted I might be wrong, won't be the first time,
> > but wacking someone 4 times with a d6 weapon is just a marine 
> > looking cool.  If he wants to be a killer, he'll use wrestling or
> > immobilize.
> > 
> > Wright
> > 
> > > > I had a short word wigh Wright about the new "marine weapons" on the list.
> > > > I assume marine weapons as a classification means that marines buy their
> > > > skills at cost.  I have a problem with this given that the overwhelming
> > > > majority of warrior skills are obselete weapon skills and giving the
> > > > marines more weapon skills just makes warriors that much more useless,
> > > > except for the mods.
> > > > 
> > > > I would perhaps agree that "fencing"  type weapons can be used with the
> > > > fencing skill in the book, but perhaps the skills associated with the
> > > > weapons
> > > > still be reserved to warriors.
> > > > 
> > > > Jevan
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Then move the weapon skills to warrior as well, because as is, fencing
> > > is utterly worthless as a skill.
> > > 
> > > Okay, not utterly, but for a BC of 350, its just expensive combat mod.
> > > 
> > > Wright
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>