Re: we need to argue more...

[Jevan Furmanski <furmansj@expert.cc.purdue.edu>]

My reply to your message is this.  Wrestling skill is a temporary skill
that was just to be tested.  I would think that its overwhelming power
that stems from its hasty creation would merit a much higher base cost.  

You ask rob what he thinks about marines as compared to warriors with
skill, you know the answer.

Immobilize has always been that way, but some unarmored areas are more out
of the way and require a higher check.

Regadless of effectiveness, warriors have all but 2 weapon skills (or
three?).  The only ones that are up for debate are punching and kicking
which have never been written up or even put in a errata.  Some even want
to change these and their base costs.  I just want a write up.

I think that if marines can just invent weapons for skills, it is only a
matter of time until marine missile weapons get invented just for the
skill, and they just make themselves the uber-warrior.

Jevan


On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Wright Frazier wrote:

> 
> I started thinking about this, and I have to disagree fully that
> it would hamper warriors in any way.  The highest damage any of
> those weapons do is 1d8(Sabre), 1d6(rapier and estoc), and 1d4(main-gauche).
> I don't see how this would take anything away from warriors.  Warriors
> are still the only ones that get a d10, d12, and a d20+4 weapon(the lance).
> I would argue heavily that warriors are still the weapon skill gods, and
> that Marines get no increase in power, just an increase in variety.
> They already have a d8 weapon that is very versitile(the maroglave).
> 
> Further, if warriors are 'obsolete', and marines are the combat
> gods, then 4 weapons skills being juggled aren't going to fix or address
> the problem.  Its things like Immobilize, pummeling, wrestling, etc... that
> make Marines better in a fight usually. Since marines can  
> immobilize to get around armor, and making you take a full round to
> stand up, a Marine is the match of anyone in a fight because noone has
> a grapple mod for shit.  I grapple you, and then do a few locks till
> you are at a 7 die check on your own, then I indian burn you to death,
> or Kosh you.  
> 
> btw, here is a quote from the book:
> 	"A quick blow to certain body areas can immobilize an opponent.
> 	The area (solar plexus, neck, etc.) must be unprotected, and
> 	certainly unarmored.  Roll 2d6.  If the total is less to or
> 	less than the skill rank, the opponent collapses and
> 	cannot take any actions for 3d6 rounds."
> That has nothing to do with knocking the wind out of someone as some
> folks would say.  You can immobilize people with a blow to the temples
> to stun them, to the ears and burst their ear drums, to the groing,
> to the knee, or various other nerve centers.  So unless you have
> full plate and a helmet on, a Marine is gonna get you.
> 
> Weapon skills are not where the power of the marine lies, weapon skills
> are secondary really, its things like immobilize and wrestling that
> makes marines the true terrors of the game.
> 
> Examples:
> 	1 warrior vs 1 marine.  If the marine wins init and gets the
> 	grapple, he most likely wins.  If the warrior wins init and
> 	hits, he might kill the marine, but the marine will still
> 	get the grapple unless a crit comes into play, and then the
> 	marine wins if he gets the grapple.
> 
> 	1 marine vs 2 warriors.  stalemate as the marine plays toss
> 	the monkey with the 2 warriors.  One is flying as the other
> 	gets up from being grappled and thrown.
> 
> 	2 marines vs 1 warrior. warrior dies, hands down less the 2
> 	marines got dick for DP or he gets a crit.
> 
> 	Thats just using the wrestling skill.  Add something like
> 	immobilize into it, and a respectably skilled marine will
> 	drop 1 warrior/round.
> 
> So if ya wanna move the weapon skills to Warrior, hey cool, I got
> no problem with that, just realize that is not gonna fix anything
> in my opinion.  Granted I might be wrong, won't be the first time,
> but wacking someone 4 times with a d6 weapon is just a marine 
> looking cool.  If he wants to be a killer, he'll use wrestling or
> immobilize.
> 
> Wright
> 
> > > I had a short word wigh Wright about the new "marine weapons" on the list.
> > > I assume marine weapons as a classification means that marines buy their
> > > skills at cost.  I have a problem with this given that the overwhelming
> > > majority of warrior skills are obselete weapon skills and giving the
> > > marines more weapon skills just makes warriors that much more useless,
> > > except for the mods.
> > > 
> > > I would perhaps agree that "fencing"  type weapons can be used with the
> > > fencing skill in the book, but perhaps the skills associated with the
> > > weapons
> > > still be reserved to warriors.
> > > 
> > > Jevan
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Then move the weapon skills to warrior as well, because as is, fencing
> > is utterly worthless as a skill.
> > 
> > Okay, not utterly, but for a BC of 350, its just expensive combat mod.
> > 
> > Wright
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>