Re: Elesina (those who don't care, don't read)

["Kris Ames" <kris@cioe.com>]

Sorry guys for continually posting this to the list, but I don't
believe in private replies to public accusations.

*********************************************************************
******


Lyle,

You say in this message:

> Also, I have not attacked your integrity as a GM, nor have I
accused
> you of taking out your hurt feelings on all my characters.

Ah , but your last message said:

>If you are not able to separate game issues from personal issues,
just tell me and I
>will be sure to never even think about playing in an adventure
where you are
>playing or GM'ing, and I would ask that you not sign up on an
adventure that
>I am GM'ing for the same reason.

This statement does imply that you think I take these things out in
the game.  I think that is extremely clear in your statement.

Also in your last message you state:

>Next, Martin and those he was adventuring with, whom he trusted,
had never
>seen a Hirudo up close, so the "caricature" could just as well have
been the
>real thing.  We were just trying to keep our out of character
knowledge from
>interfering with our adventurer knowledge.  Also, our primary
concern was
>that a number of other party members were acting awfully
suspicious, and
>more over, acting as if Hirudo were okay people.  This was very
counter to
>the whole mission, so that would explain our accusations; of
course, Elesina's
>"caricature" didn't help matters at all.

1. No one in the party was a Hirudo or had ever pretended to be a
Hirudo or acted like one in any way.  Preston was playing, but he
was not playing Tanis.  Your suspicions were Player suspicions, not
character suspicions.  So out of character knowledge was a definite
one here.

2.  any idiot adventurer who thinks something that looks has pure
white skin, bulging cartoon eyes and sharp pointy, lopsided teeth a
foot long, and green fingernails, is standing in full daylight
munching on a cinnamon stick is a Hirudo has to have an INT of 6. If
martin had an Int of 6 I apologize for picking on the mentally
retarded.  Dan I believe has stated in the past that if it is in the
book, characters know it as part of their upbringing, therefore all
characters have more than a little clue about Hirudo.

Now yes, I am still very hot over this topic, mainly because it
keeps getting brought up.  I don't enjoy it being brought up again
and again always with some reference to my cheating and bringing a
character back in a underhanded, unauthorized way (A character I
might add I have never played again).  

> I wish you could move on with your life and continue to enjoy a
hobby that I know
> you used to enjoy greatly.

I did move on, but people keep bringing it up.  It always seems
funny to me that people can make implications, innuendo then wait
for someone to respond/defend themselves and the next thing you know
the person who made the initial implication wants no more said on
the subject.

My final word on the subject (unless you reply some more and say
other things) is.

1.  No cheating ever went on in bringing Elesina back
2.  The entire adventure was bogus
3.  Lightening bolts don't arc (particularly at point blank range). 
Because if they do they do not move in a straight line and I can hit
many more enemy people with them and do other neetsy cool things as
well.



PS All of your messages have been made public and posted in the
since that your messages are included in my public replys.


----------
> From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> To: 'Kris Ames' <kris@cioe.com>; gmlist@cioe.com
> Subject: RE: Elesina
> Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 3:04 PM
> 
> Sheesh, Kris!  Have you had your blood pressure checked lately?
> You are getting awfully hot under the collar for no good reason.
> That in and of itself lends credence to the idea that this is
still a
> big sore spot with you.  I'm sorry that it is so.  I wish you
could
> move on with your life and continue to enjoy a hobby that I know
> you used to enjoy greatly.
> 
> If you wish to make sure everyone, in fact, sees all the messages
> we've sent today on this issue, then please forward my notes to
> the list.  You don't need to worry about me getting upset.  My
only
> upset is how you reacted to my initial query about Elesina's
current
> disposition.  Please forgive my foggy memory, I must have killed
> that brain cell sometime over the past year.  ;-)
> 
> Hey, no accusations regarding anyone's ethics were made.  I merely
> asked if she had been brought back and how and you responded by
> broadcasting your ill-feelings on the matter to the whole list. 
Feeling
> that this was a personal matter, I took it off-line, not wanting
anyone
> to get their feelings hurt in public.  I'm sorry you decided to
make
> public your hurt feelings, Kris.
> 
> Also, I have not attacked your integrity as a GM, nor have I
accused
> you of taking out your hurt feelings on all my characters.
> 
> Uh, wait, on rereading your note, I find that I am upset about one
> other thing.  You have explicitly accused me, Lyle, of directly
attacking
> you, Kris, because I personally did not like what you were doing
out
> of character.  I just moments ago in a private note admitted that
I did
> recall wishing you would either pay full attention to the game, or
just
> socialize, not both (again, please feel free to forward that note
to the
> list).  I contend, however, that my characters actions, and those
of his
> compatriots, were directly in keeping with their motivations and
the
> actions of your character.  Perhaps if you were paying more
attention
> to the game, you would have realized how deadly serious our role-
> played actions and reactions were leading up to 'the incident'.
> 
> By the way, I also noted in that personal email that, according to
my
> book, lightning bolts follow "the path of least resistance" so it
might not
> be advisable to wear metal armor in the near vicinity of an Air
Mage
> (or a very powerful Fire Mage).  Unless my book is incorrect, of
course.
> 
> You made this an issue of integrity, Kris, not I.  However, I will
walk
> away from it if you think you can; never another word need be
said,
> in public or private.
> 
> What say you?
> 
> Lyle
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kris Ames [SMTP:kris@cioe.com]
> Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 2:23 PM
> To:	gmlist@cioe.com
> Subject:	Re: Elesina
> 
> As for why I posted this to the group, you raised a question about
> my and other people's ethics in regards to a character being
> resurrected.  You raised this question in front of the entire
group.
>  I think it is my right to put all rebuttal/talk about this
question
> in the open. I am sick of accusations or innuendoes starting
> publicly and then the resolution happening privately.  Assuming a
> satisfactory resolution happens in private then the other 15
people
> who heard the original accusation, do not see the resolution and
are
> left with the possibility that Kris with the help of her friends
> cheated.  I have always played strictly by the rules and err on
the
> side of being too harsh with myself.  All postings sent to me on
> this subject will find their way to the list in which I was first
> accused.
> 
> Now as to the lightening bolt, I remember it was a mini bolt
(maybe
> it was a lightening bolt).  It was done when the cook ordered me
out
> of the Kitchen.  There was no refusal on my part to leave, but he
> did IMMEDIATELY advance at me with a meat cleaver and took a swing
> (My character didn't even have a knife on her).  I viewed that as
> hostile.  The GM then ruled that the minibolt (or lightening bolt)
> "ARCED" due to the pots and pans in the room and did damage to
> people other than the target or in the direct line of the target. 
I
> might add that that is an incorrect ruling.  Lightening bolts in
AQ
> can't do that or we would not wear metal armor.
> 
> Now as to separating player feelings from Characters or GMing I
> think you need to evaluate your behavior and how you do either of
> these things.  If I was going to take my personal feelings and
bring
> them into character game I would have taken my resurrected
> character, played her, and had her hunt down all Lyle characters
and
> kill them or some other equally ludicrous action.  The fact
remains
> that "Lyle" got offended at something Kris was doing and took it
out
> in game.  You don't like it when people or characters make fun of
> situations and took it into your own hands in game as well as
> encouraged other players to do actions that were contradictory
with
> their characters motivations.  If people feel I take things too
> personally Lyle, just get a vote I'll stop GMing in addition to
the
> fact that I have already stopped playing since the incident which
> involved bogus GMing as well as role playing on the part of other
> people.  But if you do take that vote lets let everyone vote on
> whether they trust you to impartially GM or play as well.  I'll
> abstain from voting on either issue.  If you don't call this vote,
I
> expect to NEVER HEAR ANOTHER WORD FROM YOU ON THIS SUBJECT
(Elesina
> or my immortality/integrity)
> 
> -Kris
> ----------
> > From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> > To: 'Kris Ames' <kris@cioe.com>
> > Cc: 'Steve Ames' <steve@ns1.cioe.com>
> > Subject: RE: Elisina
> > Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 1:46 PM
> > 
> > Eh, okay Kris.  Whatever.  Hmmm, wait.  No, not whatever.  I
took
> this
> > offline from the list to keep the conversation from the point of
> my letter
> > on between you, me, Steve and the fence post.  You didn't need
to
> go
> > screaming about it on the list as it has absolutely nothing to
do
> with that
> > forum.
> > 
> > As a rebuttal to your note, you have the incident mostly correct
> in your
> > memory, but not entirely (at least, not as I recall; but then
> again, my
> > memory is not perfect either).  As I recall, our subgroup would
> have been
> > content to let Elesina go on without further response to her
games
> if she
> > had followed the order of the Galley Cook when he ordered her
out
> of the
> > galley.  She refused and when he sought to make her leave, she
> cast a
> > lightning bolt at him.  However, due to the incredibly close
> quarters of the
> > ships galley, our whole subgroup was caught in the bolt and took
> damage.
> > Trust me, a third of the party took damage from the lightning
> bolt.  If my
> > adventurer in particular hadn't taken that damage, he would have
> survived
> > the poke Difuge gave him with the shank doused in poison, which,
I
> might
> > add, was never described as having a slick layer of goo coating
it
> (Martin
> > only died by a handful of points).
> > 
> > Next, Martin and those he was adventuring with, whom he trusted,
> had never
> > seen a Hirudo up close, so the "caricature" could just as well
> have been the
> > real thing.  We were just trying to keep our out of character
> knowledge from
> > interfering with our adventurer knowledge.  Also, our primary
> concern was
> > that a number of other party members were acting awfully
> suspicious, and
> > more over, acting as if Hirudo were okay people.  This was very
> counter to
> > the whole mission, so that would explain our accusations; of
> course, Elesina's
> > "caricature" didn't help matters at all.
> > 
> > Finally, I do apologize for forgetting about any stink I may
have
> raised a year
> > ago regarding this situation.  Like I said, my memory is
> imperfect.  But then
> > again, it looks like you are still harboring ill feeling
yourself
> about the whole
> > thing, and moreover, based on your posting, those feelings are
> founded upon
> > poorly remembered facts of the situation.  Please, at least own
up
> to the fact
> > that Elesina is at least partially to blame for that night.  I
> would certainly bet
> > that showing up in any of the larger majority of bars, acting
like
> a Hirudo, and
> > then lightning bolting a handful of the patrons would get you
> pretty much the
> > same response.
> > 
> > Kris, I came over to your place after you called me at 5am later
> that morning,
> > crying into my ear, because I thought you were taking the whole
> thing far too
> > personally and I still wanted to maintain some form of
friendship
> with you.  I
> > still do, but it looks like you still harbor personal feelings
on
> the issue.  If you
> > are not able to separate game issues from personal issues, just
> tell me and I
> > will be sure to never even think about playing in an adventure
> where you are
> > playing or GM'ing, and I would ask that you not sign up on an
> adventure that
> > I am GM'ing for the same reason.
> > 
> > Lyle
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Kris Ames [SMTP:kris@cioe.com]
> > Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 1:12 PM
> > To:	gmlist@cioe.com
> > Subject:	Elisina
> > 
> > Okay Lyle,
> > 
> > 1.  I didn't lightening bolt anyone or do a SINGLE POINT OF
DAMAGE
> > TO ANYONE IN THE PARTY. No lightening bolts were cast by me.
> > 
> > 2.  The oh so lovely adventurers and an actor who murdered me
> > decided to dump the body overboard then changed you minds and
> tried
> > to grab it back when you realized that Difuge, Carl and Dom were
> > outside.  Carl grabbed the body went immaterial and left.
> > 
> > 3.  You were actually the ones making a mockery of the mission
> > because you kept accusing party members of being hirudo and knew
> > nothing about anyone.  These accusations were made because
PLAYERS
> > not characters knew that a couple of the people on the mission
> have
> > played Hirudo.  Talk about taking out of game knowledge and
> > abusing/using it.  My CHARACTER viewed this as crap and using
> > phantasmal water transmogrify made herself look like a
CHARICATURE
> > of a Hirudo (BIG pointy teeth, pasty complexion...etc all
cartoon
> > style).
> > 
> > 4.  The only reason Elesina "died" is because
> > 	a.  She refused to kill a bunch of innocents to get out of a
bad
> > situation (these same innocents later held the sword against her
> > throat and "set to kill" on the command of your character who
had
> > her pinned).
> > 
> > b.  The magic item database had been corrupted and loaded with a
> > version that was 3+ months out of date and a magic item type
thing
> > done to HER BODY was not there so the GM ruled she "left the
item
> at
> > home"
> > 
> > 5.  You brought up this whole SHIT a year ago when you heard she
> was
> > resurrected a year ago and you were answered then the same way.
> > 
> > 6.  Greg was just using my character name as an example of a
> > character who uses fireballs and Elesina had nothing to do with
> the
> > discussion at hand.
> > 
> > 
> > -Kris
> > 
> > ----------
> > > From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> > > To: 'steve@ns1.cioe.com'; 'kris@cioe.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Team Tactics
> > > Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 11:54 AM
> > > 
> > > Uh, okay.  Thanks, I guess.  But the question wasn't about my
> > > adventurer.  It was about the disposition of the body that
> > belonged
> > > to an adventurer that was making a mockery of a mission that
> many
> > > of the other party members where taking seriously (after all,
> > Hirudo
> > > were to be feared and despised), and who later impersonated a
> > > Hirudo and afterwards lightning-bolted a third of the party in
> > close
> > > quarters (it's true, the world _is_ full of a**holes).  If Dan
> ran
> > it, then
> > > that's the way it is, but I thought for certain that the cadre
> of
> > Ra priests
> > > on board the ship had something to say about the disposition
of
> > the
> > > actual body.  Then again, what happened _after_ that night is
> > little of
> > > my concern since my part ended when my character died as a
> result
> > > of his enforcement of what he believed to be proper
consequences
> > to
> > > the actions performed against him, and those few fellow
> > adventurers
> > > he trusted, by the aforementioned adventurer (despite my
> personal
> > > feelings for Kris, herself).  But, I guess, I do appreciate
the
> > fact that
> > > you guys discussed the option nonetheless.
> > > 
> > > Lyle
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Steve Ames [SMTP:]
> > > Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 11:30 AM
> > > To:	gmlist@cioe.com; 
> > > Subject:	Re: Team Tactics
> > > 
> > > > PS Lyle the reason we kept giving examples of why it was
> > necessary
> > > > is because in your last post you were still calling it a
> crock. 
> > > > Also Elesina was resurrected under Dan and I retired her. 
She
> > had
> > > > no desire to adventure any more because the world was full
of
> > Ass
> > > 
> > > For what its worth Lyle... we had a pretty lengthy discussion
on
> > > resurrecting your character that killed Elesina or not. Aside
> from
> > > the godlike thrill we get over holding someone's potential
> > resurrection
> > > in our hands, we felt that some benefit could be gained from
> your
> > > resurrection. However in the end we couldn't justify the
> > expenditure
> > > since you weren't really all that useful of an adventurer (to
> us).
> > > But beleive that I only speak the truth when I say that if we
> > could
> > > have justified it you would also have been resurrected... a
> dozen
> > > times :)
> > > 
> > > 						-Steve
> > > 
> > 
>