RE: A note from your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate

[Jevan Furmanski <furmansj@expert.cc.purdue.edu>]

I have already written on the dwindling population of newbies.  This is
absolutely a source of the thinning of the club.  Your claims have no
substantiation without revealing credible sources.  I am starting to get
angered now by your constant beligerance and condemnation.  We can point
fingers and accuse, and that is exactly how people get wrong ideas about
players and characters (watches of time stop, swords of all the Tor
drills).  We do not need a negative voice in the club to constantly
critisize just for the sake of disagreemant.  You are going to have to be
a little more credible about your accusations or I am no longer going to
entertain discourse that is just endless bickering.

Jevan

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Lyle H Janney wrote:

> Ah, but Wright, are you willing to ask a dozen or more of the people
> on my list if the trend I've observed has any substantiation?  We could
> do that together if it would make you feel any better.  I assert that at
> least one of the reasons they seldom or no longer show up is because
> of the gaming atmosphere no longer being fun, so what would be the
> point.  I also assert that the Fantasy Club used to support 4 groups of
> 10-12 players (if not more) on a regular basis.  Now, you see, there
> are only 3, and then not always as full.  Finally, not all the munchkins
> and/or rules-torquers play on the same adventure, meaning that it is
> very likely that someone who is _very_ selective would wind up going
> home anyway.  Seen it happen with others.  Done it myself.  You can
> stick your head in the sand with the rest of the ostriches, but the trend
> is _real_ (even _if_ you are correct and my proposed reason for the
> trend is bogus).
> 
> So, you won't accept here-say, that's actually commendable since I
> wouldn't either, but I'll happily ask these people to repeat the words
> I have heard them say in your presence if you truly believe that there
> is no problem here.
> 
> Lyle
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Wright Frazier [SMTP:khelek@ns1.cioe.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, September 03, 1998 3:58 PM
> To:	Lyle H Janney
> Cc:	gmlist@cioe.com
> Subject:	Re: A note from your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate
> 
> 
> Sorry, I just can't buy it without some solid proof.  That is a
> really strong accusation you are making towards a whole lot of
> people, and you won't substantiate it.  Yet you expect people
> to jump all over your notion that some folks are driving this
> campaign in a direction that is bad.  Sorry, not gonna buy it
> without at least some evidence other than "Someone said bleh."
> I can come up with a whole list of things "Someone said" quotes
> just for giggles.  But I'm not gonna put'em forth as fact or as
> a reason folks should reevaluate and change their playing style.
> 
> I'll be the first to admit I have different roleplaying styles
> than other people, however I can't honestly say that I think
> someone else is destroying the game or forcing people to leave.
> a) people leave because they want too.  b) you don't have to
> play with the people you don't want too.  AQ is big enough
> to still support 3 games in a week with ease.
> Further I may not like a direction someone is pushing the game towards,
> however unless I can come up with solid proof and a good arguement, 
> I don't expect to be able to convincepeople that my way is better.
> You haven't provided that Lyle, you are just making statements
> without proof.
> 
> Sorry, but that just isn't gonna cut it. =(
> 
> Wright
> 
> > In response, I wrote up a list of those people whom I know either no longer,
> > or seldom, show up due, primarily, to the behaviors of certain club members.
> > Some of these people have simply found 'better' things to do with their Sat.
> > nights, and I can't say that I blame them.  The list currently has _15_ people
> > on it and I'm certain I'm missing a few because I just jotted down the people
> > who popped into my head during the first 5 minutes I thought about it.
> > 
> > To confirm my list, I spoke with one of the people on the list to get their view
> > and they concurred.  The majority of the people listed left with very a bad taste
> > in their mouth and those that return from time to time tend to do so because
> > they have little else to do and are hoping that they will actually have a decent
> > gaming experience that night.
> > 
> > I do not currently intend to publish the list because of my own personal
> > convictions regarding decorum.  That, and I fully expect that various members
> > of the GMLIST would run down the list of names and give their own comments
> > regarding certain people on the list (e.g., 'glad they left', 'no, they work now', 
> > no, they still show up', etc.).  I'm not out to start another argument, I just want
> > you folks to realize that there are a lot of people who no longer find AQ to be
> > as much fun as it used to be.  To quote someone from the list of names, "if it
> > came down to a choice between AQ and a root canal, well, I'd have to think
> > about it."  The reasons they cite for it not being as much fun are the very
> > reasons I mentioned earlier; munchkinism, power-gaming, and rules-torqueing.
> > 
> > I realize that this leaves you guys thinking that I am unable to substantiate my
> > claims.  I assert that I am correct nonetheless.  If you really want to _prove_
> > me wrong, then find 15 people who no longer show up, rarely show up, or only
> > show up to GM and ask them why they rarely, if ever, come to play anymore.
> > Actually, you'd better make that 19 people, I thought of 4 more a couple minutes
> > ago.
> > 
> > Lyle
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Wright Frazier [SMTP:khelek@ns1.cioe.com]
> > 
> > Who has left because of this 'attitude' that you bring up?  Not that
> > I pay huge amounts of attention to who shows and who doesn't show, but
> > from what I've heard, the majority of people who no longer show up are
> > because of work related responsiblities.
> > 
> > Wright
> > 
> > 
> 
>