RE: Elesina

[Greg Mowczko <mooch@ns1.cioe.com>]

> From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> To: "'Kris Ames'" <kris@cioe.com>, "gmlist@cioe.com" <gmlist@cioe.com>
> Subject: RE: Elesina
>
> Sheesh, Kris!  Have you had your blood pressure checked lately?

Actually her blood pressure is pretty low. I go to the supermarket and
she always has the lowest while I just seem a bit high.

> You are getting awfully hot under the collar for no good reason.
> That in and of itself lends credence to the idea that this is still a
> big sore spot with you.  I'm sorry that it is so.  I wish you could
> move on with your life and continue to enjoy a hobby that I know
> you used to enjoy greatly.

For the most part she has moved on. We all get sore about having an
adventurer die due to a poorly caused death. If a player screws up
they get upset at themselves. If a GM screws up the player gets made
at them. If a player dies due to other players killing them they
get the focus of it. Most all of us don't care for player killing.
I in the 10 years of playing AQ have killed 1 adventurer who was trying
to kill another. When I attacked that adventurer I told him to stop.
After multiple times of stating stop ( without him stopping when the
other kept trying to get away ) I finally just finished hacking them.
The player refused to stop attacking the other even after I had knocked
them down to >10 DP. I wasn't happy to do it and grappling wasn't
working either.

Some people just let go of it a little longer than others  ( to bad
Pat is not on this list anymore :) ).

> If you wish to make sure everyone, in fact, sees all the messages
> we've sent today on this issue, then please forward my notes to
> the list.  You don't need to worry about me getting upset.  My only
> upset is how you reacted to my initial query about Elesina's current
> disposition.  Please forgive my foggy memory, I must have killed
> that brain cell sometime over the past year.  ;-)

She has included the full text of the messages you sent her already.

> Hey, no accusations regarding anyone's ethics were made.  I merely
> asked if she had been brought back and how and you responded by
> broadcasting your ill-feelings on the matter to the whole list.  Feeling
> that this was a personal matter, I took it off-line, not wanting anyone
> to get their feelings hurt in public.  I'm sorry you decided to make
> public your hurt feelings, Kris.

The fact that this started as something else and you made the comment
publically she didn't want someone not seeing all of it and thinking
something was being avoided.

> Also, I have not attacked your integrity as a GM, nor have I accused
> you of taking out your hurt feelings on all my characters.

That is true. You just tried to infer something about it. ( the first part
not the second )

> Uh, wait, on rereading your note, I find that I am upset about one
> other thing.  You have explicitly accused me, Lyle, of directly attacking
> you, Kris, because I personally did not like what you were doing out
> of character.  I just moments ago in a private note admitted that I did
> recall wishing you would either pay full attention to the game, or just
> socialize, not both (again, please feel free to forward that note to the
> list).  I contend, however, that my characters actions, and those of his
> compatriots, were directly in keeping with their motivations and the
> actions of your character.  Perhaps if you were paying more attention
> to the game, you would have realized how deadly serious our role-
> played actions and reactions were leading up to 'the incident'.

She was paying attention that night and not even reading a book much less
socializing out of character. She went down to the Chef and it
was you who followed her. It seemed when you weent down you were looking for
some reason to start something. There was no reason for everyone to be there 
and thus why the people who would back her were not in the kitchen until
after the lightning bolt.

> By the way, I also noted in that personal email that, according to my
> book, lightning bolts follow "the path of least resistance" so it might not
> be advisable to wear metal armor in the near vicinity of an Air Mage
> (or a very powerful Fire Mage).  Unless my book is incorrect, of course.

The path of least resistence Lyle is air. If the bolt needs to travel through
2 inches of air ( it was damn close quarters in there ) it will not jump
around and hit everyone. At best it could jump to one of those pans across
that and to the target nothing near the effect that was generated, not even
close. Most all of the people hit by this bolt were BEHIND Elesina.

> You made this an issue of integrity, Kris, not I.  However, I will walk
> away from it if you think you can; never another word need be said,
> in public or private.
>
> What say you?

I'm sure she is willing to drop the whole thing as long as you stop trying
to get the last word in and make her look to be the bad guy. The whole thing
got brought up by my using Elesina as an example of a Fire mage an you
inuendoed "is she alive?" and how did that come about? I can grant you
may have had a lapse of memory I've been known to forget some things but
usually I will try to remember what occured first before asking the questions.

Before I get lost ( you know I am at work ) I think I am going to end this
post. Just remember if you have a problem it is better to state your problem
than to infer something and if you don't have a problem you should make sure
it doesn't look as if you do.
						Greg

> Lyle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kris Ames [SMTP:kris@cioe.com]
> Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 2:23 PM
> To:	gmlist@cioe.com
> Subject:	Re: Elesina
>
> As for why I posted this to the group, you raised a question about
> my and other people's ethics in regards to a character being
> resurrected.  You raised this question in front of the entire group.
>  I think it is my right to put all rebuttal/talk about this question
> in the open. I am sick of accusations or innuendoes starting
> publicly and then the resolution happening privately.  Assuming a
> satisfactory resolution happens in private then the other 15 people
> who heard the original accusation, do not see the resolution and are
> left with the possibility that Kris with the help of her friends
> cheated.  I have always played strictly by the rules and err on the
> side of being too harsh with myself.  All postings sent to me on
> this subject will find their way to the list in which I was first
> accused.
>
> Now as to the lightening bolt, I remember it was a mini bolt (maybe
> it was a lightening bolt).  It was done when the cook ordered me out
> of the Kitchen.  There was no refusal on my part to leave, but he
> did IMMEDIATELY advance at me with a meat cleaver and took a swing
> (My character didn't even have a knife on her).  I viewed that as
> hostile.  The GM then ruled that the minibolt (or lightening bolt)
> "ARCED" due to the pots and pans in the room and did damage to
> people other than the target or in the direct line of the target.  I
> might add that that is an incorrect ruling.  Lightening bolts in AQ
> can't do that or we would not wear metal armor.
>
> Now as to separating player feelings from Characters or GMing I
> think you need to evaluate your behavior and how you do either of
> these things.  If I was going to take my personal feelings and bring
> them into character game I would have taken my resurrected
> character, played her, and had her hunt down all Lyle characters and
> kill them or some other equally ludicrous action.  The fact remains
> that "Lyle" got offended at something Kris was doing and took it out
> in game.  You don't like it when people or characters make fun of
> situations and took it into your own hands in game as well as
> encouraged other players to do actions that were contradictory with
> their characters motivations.  If people feel I take things too
> personally Lyle, just get a vote I'll stop GMing in addition to the
> fact that I have already stopped playing since the incident which
> involved bogus GMing as well as role playing on the part of other
> people.  But if you do take that vote lets let everyone vote on
> whether they trust you to impartially GM or play as well.  I'll
> abstain from voting on either issue.  If you don't call this vote, I
> expect to NEVER HEAR ANOTHER WORD FROM YOU ON THIS SUBJECT (Elesina
> or my immortality/integrity)
>
> -Kris
> ----------
> > From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> > To: 'Kris Ames' <kris@cioe.com>
> > Cc: 'Steve Ames' <steve@ns1.cioe.com>
> > Subject: RE: Elisina
> > Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 1:46 PM
> > 
> > Eh, okay Kris.  Whatever.  Hmmm, wait.  No, not whatever.  I took
> this
> > offline from the list to keep the conversation from the point of
> my letter
> > on between you, me, Steve and the fence post.  You didn't need to
> go
> > screaming about it on the list as it has absolutely nothing to do
> with that
> > forum.
> > 
> > As a rebuttal to your note, you have the incident mostly correct
> in your
> > memory, but not entirely (at least, not as I recall; but then
> again, my
> > memory is not perfect either).  As I recall, our subgroup would
> have been
> > content to let Elesina go on without further response to her games
> if she
> > had followed the order of the Galley Cook when he ordered her out
> of the
> > galley.  She refused and when he sought to make her leave, she
> cast a
> > lightning bolt at him.  However, due to the incredibly close
> quarters of the
> > ships galley, our whole subgroup was caught in the bolt and took
> damage.
> > Trust me, a third of the party took damage from the lightning
> bolt.  If my
> > adventurer in particular hadn't taken that damage, he would have
> survived
> > the poke Difuge gave him with the shank doused in poison, which, I
> might
> > add, was never described as having a slick layer of goo coating it
> (Martin
> > only died by a handful of points).
> > 
> > Next, Martin and those he was adventuring with, whom he trusted,
> had never
> > seen a Hirudo up close, so the "caricature" could just as well
> have been the
> > real thing.  We were just trying to keep our out of character
> knowledge from
> > interfering with our adventurer knowledge.  Also, our primary
> concern was
> > that a number of other party members were acting awfully
> suspicious, and
> > more over, acting as if Hirudo were okay people.  This was very
> counter to
> > the whole mission, so that would explain our accusations; of
> course, Elesina's
> > "caricature" didn't help matters at all.
> > 
> > Finally, I do apologize for forgetting about any stink I may have
> raised a year
> > ago regarding this situation.  Like I said, my memory is
> imperfect.  But then
> > again, it looks like you are still harboring ill feeling yourself
> about the whole
> > thing, and moreover, based on your posting, those feelings are
> founded upon
> > poorly remembered facts of the situation.  Please, at least own up
> to the fact
> > that Elesina is at least partially to blame for that night.  I
> would certainly bet
> > that showing up in any of the larger majority of bars, acting like
> a Hirudo, and
> > then lightning bolting a handful of the patrons would get you
> pretty much the
> > same response.
> > 
> > Kris, I came over to your place after you called me at 5am later
> that morning,
> > crying into my ear, because I thought you were taking the whole
> thing far too
> > personally and I still wanted to maintain some form of friendship
> with you.  I
> > still do, but it looks like you still harbor personal feelings on
> the issue.  If you
> > are not able to separate game issues from personal issues, just
> tell me and I
> > will be sure to never even think about playing in an adventure
> where you are
> > playing or GM'ing, and I would ask that you not sign up on an
> adventure that
> > I am GM'ing for the same reason.
> > 
> > Lyle
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Kris Ames [SMTP:kris@cioe.com]
> > Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 1:12 PM
> > To:	gmlist@cioe.com
> > Subject:	Elisina
> > 
> > Okay Lyle,
> > 
> > 1.  I didn't lightening bolt anyone or do a SINGLE POINT OF DAMAGE
> > TO ANYONE IN THE PARTY. No lightening bolts were cast by me.
> > 
> > 2.  The oh so lovely adventurers and an actor who murdered me
> > decided to dump the body overboard then changed you minds and
> tried
> > to grab it back when you realized that Difuge, Carl and Dom were
> > outside.  Carl grabbed the body went immaterial and left.
> > 
> > 3.  You were actually the ones making a mockery of the mission
> > because you kept accusing party members of being hirudo and knew
> > nothing about anyone.  These accusations were made because PLAYERS
> > not characters knew that a couple of the people on the mission
> have
> > played Hirudo.  Talk about taking out of game knowledge and
> > abusing/using it.  My CHARACTER viewed this as crap and using
> > phantasmal water transmogrify made herself look like a CHARICATURE
> > of a Hirudo (BIG pointy teeth, pasty complexion...etc all cartoon
> > style).
> > 
> > 4.  The only reason Elesina "died" is because
> > 	a.  She refused to kill a bunch of innocents to get out of a bad
> > situation (these same innocents later held the sword against her
> > throat and "set to kill" on the command of your character who had
> > her pinned).
> > 
> > b.  The magic item database had been corrupted and loaded with a
> > version that was 3+ months out of date and a magic item type thing
> > done to HER BODY was not there so the GM ruled she "left the item
> at
> > home"
> > 
> > 5.  You brought up this whole SHIT a year ago when you heard she
> was
> > resurrected a year ago and you were answered then the same way.
> > 
> > 6.  Greg was just using my character name as an example of a
> > character who uses fireballs and Elesina had nothing to do with
> the
> > discussion at hand.
> > 
> > 
> > -Kris
> > 
> > ----------
> > > From: Lyle H Janney <lhjanney@adpc.purdue.edu>
> > > To: 'steve@ns1.cioe.com'; 'kris@cioe.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Team Tactics
> > > Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 11:54 AM
> > > 
> > > Uh, okay.  Thanks, I guess.  But the question wasn't about my
> > > adventurer.  It was about the disposition of the body that
> > belonged
> > > to an adventurer that was making a mockery of a mission that
> many
> > > of the other party members where taking seriously (after all,
> > Hirudo
> > > were to be feared and despised), and who later impersonated a
> > > Hirudo and afterwards lightning-bolted a third of the party in
> > close
> > > quarters (it's true, the world _is_ full of a**holes).  If Dan
> ran
> > it, then
> > > that's the way it is, but I thought for certain that the cadre
> of
> > Ra priests
> > > on board the ship had something to say about the disposition of
> > the
> > > actual body.  Then again, what happened _after_ that night is
> > little of
> > > my concern since my part ended when my character died as a
> result
> > > of his enforcement of what he believed to be proper consequences
> > to
> > > the actions performed against him, and those few fellow
> > adventurers
> > > he trusted, by the aforementioned adventurer (despite my
> personal
> > > feelings for Kris, herself).  But, I guess, I do appreciate the
> > fact that
> > > you guys discussed the option nonetheless.
> > > 
> > > Lyle
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Steve Ames [SMTP:]
> > > Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 11:30 AM
> > > To:	gmlist@cioe.com; 
> > > Subject:	Re: Team Tactics
> > > 
> > > > PS Lyle the reason we kept giving examples of why it was
> > necessary
> > > > is because in your last post you were still calling it a
> crock. 
> > > > Also Elesina was resurrected under Dan and I retired her.  She
> > had
> > > > no desire to adventure any more because the world was full of
> > Ass
> > > 
> > > For what its worth Lyle... we had a pretty lengthy discussion on
> > > resurrecting your character that killed Elesina or not. Aside
> from
> > > the godlike thrill we get over holding someone's potential
> > resurrection
> > > in our hands, we felt that some benefit could be gained from
> your
> > > resurrection. However in the end we couldn't justify the
> > expenditure
> > > since you weren't really all that useful of an adventurer (to
> us).
> > > But beleive that I only speak the truth when I say that if we
> > could
> > > have justified it you would also have been resurrected... a
> dozen
> > > times :)
> > > 
> > > 						-Steve
> > > 
> > 
>
>